Canada Day crackdown - BCCLA complaint!

[VicHockeyFan]

CFAX:

LOCAL POLICE DEPTs TARGETED BY JULY 1st COMPLAINT

Jul 8, 2008

A FORMAL COMPLAINT HAS BEEN LAUNCHED BY THE B.C. CIVIL LIBERTIES ASSOCIATION AGAINST ALL THE POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN THE CAPITAL REGION, OVER ALCOHOL SEIZURE BACK ON CANADA DAY.

THE ASSOCIATION PRESIDENT, ROB HOLMES, IS OBJECTING TO WHAT HE CALLS RANDOM, NON-CONSENSUAL SEARCHES OF PEOPLE HEADED INTO THE DOWNTOWN CORE -- MOSTLY ABOARD TRANSIT BUSES.

HOLMES SAYS POLICE HAD NO LEGAL RIGHT TO TAKE AWAY SEALED BOTTLES OF ALCOHOL FROM ADULTS -- AND SAYS POLICE HAD NO WAY TO KNOW WHTEHER THE BOOZE WAS GOING TO BE CONSUMED ILLEGALLY IN PUBLIC.

HOLMES ADDS IT'S "ABSOLUTELY REPUGNANT" FOR THE CANADA DAY HOLIDAY TO HAVE BEEN TARNISHED BY THE SEIZURE PRACTICES OF AREA POLICE FORCES.

DEPARTMENTS IN VICTORIA, SAANICH, CENTRAL SAANICH, OAK BAY, AND THE RCMP ARE ALL NAMED IN THE COMPLAINT -- FORMALIZED TUESDAY.

[aastra]

I remember this was a big deal re: the Symphony of Fire a couple of years ago. Folks going to their homes in the west end were having bottles of wine confiscated and such. Whatever came of that situation (if anything) should apply to this one.

[VicHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by aastra

I remember this was a big deal re: the Symphony of Fire a couple of years ago. Folks going to their homes in the west end were having bottles of wine confiscated and such. Whatever came of that situation (if anything) should apply to this one.

I'm not sure it should make a different if the person has a "bottle of wine" or two 60-oz. bottles of vodka. It's legal to transport liquor.

When I was in Montreal I went pretty much directly across the road from my hotel to pick up a six-pack of beer, with plans to return directly to my hotel. Being the environmentalist you all know I am, I refused the offer of a bag for my refreshments. The clerk said OK, stuck the sticker on it proving it was purchased, but a store manager stopped me and would not let me leave the store without a bag over my purchase. I never asked him if it was the law or store policy, but he sure wasn't going to let me leave without a bag. Maybe they have a "cover" law in Quebec.

[aastra]

I'm not sure it should make a different if the person has a "bottle of wine" or two 60-oz. bottles of vodka. It's legal to transport liquor.

No argument. I put the "and such" in the wrong place. My point was that people heading to homes and parties and whatever else in the west end (population 40,000+) were bringing all sorts of booze with them and the cops were confiscating it. It was a big story but I can't remember when it was. I also can't remember if they were searching cars or just pedestrians. I think it was just pedestrians.

[aastra]

And I also can't remember if they still do it or not. Anyway, the relevant precedents should be there.

[VicHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by aastra

No argument. I put the "and such" in the wrong place. My point was that people heading to homes and parties and whatever else in the west end (population 40,000+) were bringing all sorts of booze with them and the cops were confiscating it. It was a big story but I can't remember when it was. I also can't remember if they were searching cars or just pedestrians. I think it was just pedestrians.

I wasn't trying to argue. I just think that some folks ruin their own argument about this type of seizure by always citing an example of an "elderly lady with a bottle of wine and such" when we all know it won't be mostly wine, it'll be beer or hard liquor and indeed some or even most of it will be headed for nefarious consumption. But until it is being used for that purpose, "hands off cops!"



.

[aastra]

Yeah, but the big deal was that folks with bags of groceries and such were getting the search-and-seizure treatment. If an elderly lady is walking into the west end with a bag of groceries and a bottle of wine in her cart, then you're darned right that people will be pissed off at the cops if they jump on her because she's obviously not heading to the beach to get drunk. Might she be heading to the beach later on to get drunk with that very bottle of wine? She might, but what she might be doing later is nobody's business. If you're going to seize the wine from her then you're just as justified* to go house-to-house and confiscate all the liquor you can find.

*in other words, not justified at all

[aastra]

I found this:

The police began checking for booze at bottlenecks such as the Skytrain stations and the Seabus terminal six years ago in the wake of the '94 Stanley Cup riot. For all that time they have been diligently checking people heading for the fireworks and if, and only if, they had reason to believe persons were carrying alcohol to be consumed at the beach or on the street, they confiscated the bottles and cans.

...the provincial liquor act allows this and has allowed it for as long as I can remember, which goes back to the days of the old Government Liquor Act.

[gumgum]

Originally Posted by VicHockeyFan

When I was in Montreal I went pretty much directly across the road from my hotel to pick up a six-pack of beer, with plans to return directly to my hotel. Being the environmentalist you all know I am, I refused the offer of a bag for my refreshments. The clerk said OK, stuck the sticker on it proving it was purchased, but a store manager stopped me and would not let me leave the store without a bag over my purchase. I never asked him if it was the law or store policy, but he sure wasn't going to let me leave without a bag. Maybe they have a "cover" law in Quebec.

You can't leave the store without the booze covered up somehow, even if covering up means in the beer case that it came in. Stupid. You can't leave with a can of beer exposed, but you can leave with an even bigger advertisement of it contents on the box.
Same in Ontario.
There are plenty of archaic liquor laws out east as well. Just different.

[Pyroteknik]

yes, this type of search and seizure crosses many lines. I support all they can do to curb the amount of over-intoxication and rowdiness that affect other people's enjoyment by legal means, NOT by all means nessesary! The authorities I encountered myself were watchful but friendly. But then again I avoided the buses.

Maybe the alcohol crackdown is why i noticed an increase in the smell of marijuana drifting through downtown!

[gumgum]

Lesson learned folks. If you want to drink, make sure you drive to the event. Do not take a bus.

[yodsaker]

Originally Posted by VicHockeyFan

I'm not sure it should make a different if the person has a "bottle of wine" or two 60-oz. bottles of vodka. It's legal to transport liquor.

When I was in Montreal I went pretty much directly across the road from my hotel to pick up a six-pack of beer, with plans to return directly to my hotel. Being the environmentalist you all know I am, I refused the offer of a bag for my refreshments. The clerk said OK, stuck the sticker on it proving it was purchased, but a store manager stopped me and would not let me leave the store without a bag over my purchase. I never asked him if it was the law or store policy, but he sure wasn't going to let me leave without a bag. Maybe they have a "cover" law in Quebec.

No frickin' way should they be allowed to hassle people with unopened bottles, its presupposing guilt which is a bit contrary to what the law is spozed to be.

As a boy in Montreal, I was often sent to the corner grocery by my dad to buy him a cold beer or two. I was small enough that I had to haul the bottles on my coaster wagon.

Later, as a uni student, I would be walking along on a hot day and duck into a grocery store where I could help myself to a cold one from the cooler in back, walk to the front and pay 25 cents + 2 cents deposit. Naturally, the guy kept an opener by the cash register. Because it was open the ale went into a brown paper lunch bag. I then trucked along happily guzzling, nipping into the next nearest grocery store to get my 2 cents back.

Never a problem either in getting a fresh 2-4 at 2am when the party threatened to run dry.
Ah, Quebec. Ah, civilization!

I never experienced what you refer to so I'm thinking the incident you refer to may be because you bought in a gov't store where they would be stickier about wrapping it up.

Maybe the fuzz in the RoC wouldn't be so zealous if Canadians would raise their kids to drink sensibly like in Europe instead of binge, face-in-the-soup drinking.

[VicHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by yodsaker

I never experienced what you refer to so I'm thinking the incident you refer to may be because you bought in a gov't store where they would be stickier about wrapping it up.

It wasn't a gov't store, but an IDA food store in the Desjardins Centre.

I agree about the earlier drinking age to reduce bing drinking. A guy wrote quite a comprehensive study about the number of bing-drinking deaths (BTW, up 100% overall in the last 6 years in the US) that compared McGill with a few US schools.

On a side note, my fav. local corner store, Best Buy on Douglas (an "adult store" due to smoking display) has a $5.99 two liter bottle that is a brew-it-your-self. all you do it remove the existing cap, screw on a different attached one that has some type of activator yeast or something in it, then let it sit in dark and coolish room for 2 weeks, and you have your own 5% beer at about half the cost of beer-and-wine store price. I bought one, I'll let you know in two weeks.

[Caramia]

I agree. I think by prohibiting alcohol to children we set ourselves up to have drunks for teenagers, and binge drinkers for adults.

[Rob Randall]

I witnessed the police interception of buses coming down Douglas. They set up a roadblock in front of the Budget car rental where Douglas curves right as it approaches Downtown. This meant that passengers had no warning and could not depart the bus at the previous stop when they saw the police lights in order to escape the inspection. Police also searched the empty buses so no passengers could stash booze under the seats.

Much liquor was confiscated and it flowed down the gutter like a river.

One poor young fellow had his two beers confiscated and the officer poured some of it into the little baggie of pot they found on him, destroying his stash.

I have big concerns about this. Yes, there is a big problem with drunks causing serious problems Downtown on Canada Day. And yes, it appeared that only youth were being searched. Yet one of the major cornerstones of our democratic society is the knowledge that a citizen cannot be arbitrarily searched by police without probable cause.

[VicHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by Rob Randall

I have big concerns about this. Yes, there is a big problem with drunks causing serious problems Downtown on Canada Day. And yes, it appeared that only youth were being searched. Yet one of the major cornerstones of our democratic society is the knowledge that a citizen cannot be arbitrarily searched by police without probable cause.

I'm glad you share the concern. I know they have to stop the drinking by mostly youths downtown, but I think they could make better use of moving mobile/bike patrols. I'm thinking if I'm some kid that needs to swig some booze downtown on Canada Day out of sight of others, there are not all that many places to pull it off. If caught, cops would have every right to arrest the punks, and detain them at least temporarily.

[spanky123]

I wasn't there but if the reports are all true then I have a problem with the procedure simply because it is not what the police said they would do.

One of the Victoria police spokespeople was on CFAX, I believe the Monday before Canada day, and specifically addressed these questions.

He stated that the police only intercepted buses if they had a complaint radioed in by the bus driver and there was no such thing as a "roadblock". He also said that there was no policy to confiscate unopened alcohol from adults. As a matter if fact he pointed out that every year the police wind up "buying alcohol" to replace that seized from the handful of adults but it only happened very rarely.

[yodsaker]

So I could be walking home from the beer store, hand the bag to my teenager while I fumble for something in my pocket and some minimally-trained zealot in a uniform could bust her and my bottle. Unlikely but I don't like the idea that in essence this is what has happened.
A lot of cops are not overly bright (they were stair monitors in school) and certainly don't know the law, but who has the time and money to fight them?

[yodsaker]

Originally Posted by gumgum

You can't leave the store without the booze covered up somehow, even if covering up means in the beer case that it came in. Stupid. You can't leave with a can of beer exposed, but you can leave with an even bigger advertisement of it contents on the box.
Same in Ontario.
There are plenty of archaic liquor laws out east as well. Just different.

OH Canada!
Where even the appearance of having fun mustn't be seen!
A country where they would ban sex because it might lead to dancing.
It must be said that Quebec is light years ahead of the RoC in this regard though. BYOB in restos hasn't reared its head anywhere else yet that I know of.

[Ms. B. Havin]

Originally Posted by yodsaker

BYOB in restos hasn't reared its head anywhere else yet that I know of.

do you mean in the sense of it not being allowed anywhere else (outside of PQ)? Because I think that might be wrong -- isn't it allowed here? You get charged some kind of cover fee for bringing your own wine, and not every place lets you. But I thought some did.

I also thought that it's now legal to take unconsumed wine home with you. (Like, if you order a bottle & don't finish it -- which would never happen to me, but I've heard of this happening to other people -- you can get it stoppered and take it home.) Anyone know?

Back to topic: the police tactics sound indefensible, imo. I hate people getting soup-in-the-face drunk, and don't understand the allure of that. But unauthorized / unwarranted searches? What is this? A police state?

[VicHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by Ms. B. Havin

do you mean in the sense of it not being allowed anywhere else (outside of PQ)? Because I think that might be wrong -- isn't it allowed here? You get charged some kind of cover fee for bringing your own wine, and not every place lets you. But I thought some did.

I also thought that it's now legal to take unconsumed wine home with you. (Like, if you order a bottle & don't finish it -- which would never happen to me, but I've heard of this happening to other people -- you can get it stoppered and take it home.) Anyone know?

2005 article says many provinces have BYOB:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/...nts050128.html

BC has no BYOB. BC also has a very strong wine industry, and they work hard to get lots of BC product into restaurants. I'm sure they lobby hard against BYOB, and restaurants aren't exactly screaming for it. Like the article says, some places just charge a relatively high corkage fee, then it lets high-end connoisseurs bring what they want.

Yes, restaurants in BC MUST allow you to take home unused wine ordered by the bottle.

[Baro]

Why not just search people that appear under age. Basically if you fit the legal requirements to have your ID inspected to buy (what is it, looks under 30?) and then only take the booze away from those under aged?

I'm not saying I support such searches, but that would at least target the group they're trying to target using the very criteria to buy.

[Zimquats]

It seems to me that it would have made way more sense just to use the cops from the roadblocks to instead foot patrol the inner harbour and 'police' the individuals there that were indeed breaking the law. Hell, we could have given them extra Tasers and everything...

[VicHockeyFan]

Anyone read the Letters To The Editor today in the TC?

Every single writer missed the point.

[yodsaker]

The erosion of civil liberties happens inch by inch and those who notice it are labelled cranks.
Then one day people wake up and they are gone, baby gone.