[Vic West] Victoria International Marina | Proposed

[jklymak]

Originally Posted by Greg

I guess a basis for comparison would be useful. A poor use compared to:
<a> its current use
<b> other proposed uses
<c> fantasy uses we can dream up but no one is actually proposing to invest in

Over and over in these forums people (not directed at jklymak) claim various developments are not the optimal use of some space or asset or natural resource, but they seem to often be suboptimal only in comparison to options that are actually non-existent.

<a> and <c> in my opinion, though noone has demonstrated that no one is willing to invest in other proposals.

"Non-existant options" is also a red-herring. Most development property is owned by the developer who proposes something. By your logic, any proposal for any property would be OK because no other proposals exist. So you are basically saying you do not believe in land planning. I guess I fundamentally disagree.

[Mike K.]

Actually, this is a completely different proposal from a proposal that was first floated many years ago. Recall that the City of Victoria reneged on zoning for a much, much larger marina and lost a lengthy legal battle.

The marina we see today is much reduced from the size it can be built at and it is a far cry from what we would have gotten had it been built in the late 1980's or mid-1990's when it was originally planned.

[dasmo]

I am all for a Marina there and think the commercial is a much welcome addition. It's the type of marina I object to... This is a case where nothing would be preferable. There isn't a hole or derelict building there. I'm sure the original plan didn't call for a mega yacht marina exclusive to non-residence of the Songhees...

I agree this is a working harbour! This proposal is a little like Point Hope being a shipyard exclusively for US workers but we can sell them sandwiches and look at the cool boats they are building!

[Nparker]

Originally Posted by dasmo

I'm sure the original plan didn't call for a mega yacht marina exclusive to non-residence of the Songhees...

Where have you heard that those living in the Songhees would not be allowed to dock their so-called "mega yachts" (assuming they possess them) at the new marina?

[dasmo]

There is not one person in the Songhees with a 2 -20 million dollar Yacht waiting for a place to park it. It is exclusive by the nature of it's design...

[Bernard]

Originally Posted by dasmo

I agree this is a working harbour! This proposal is a little like Point Hope being a shipyard exclusively for US workers but we can sell them sandwiches and look at the cool boats they are building!

I do not think I get the analogy. Would you not mean that Point Hope exclusively worked on US ships? It is the worker part I do not understand how that fits.

As a resident of Victoria, why would I care where the ships come from in the marina? How does that change anything? The slips are available to people from anywhere to buy and there are some really rich people in Victoria, on the Island and in BC.

[Mike K.]

Originally Posted by dasmo

There is not one person in the Songhees with a 2 -20 million dollar Yacht waiting for a place to park it. It is exclusive by the nature of it's design...

Considering the price of a condo in the Songheese this one of the few areas of the CRD where a large cluster of Victoria's wealthy(er) population resides. Nowhere else in our region is there a condo-only district like Songhees, certainly not in such a prime location with such high land values.

I know of several people from the Songheese that are considering purchasing space in this marina. Many more, I am certain, are debating it as well. Considering this I don't understand the rhetoric surrounding absentee ownership of all vessels and this being a parking lot for boats of the global elite. A lot of this type of misinformation is likely stems from fearmongering campaigns that have plagued this proposal from day one (chiefly by Songheese residents upset over the fact that they discounted a marina ever being built there).

[dasmo]

well I'm not fearmongering I think I am stating pretty reasonable opinions as to why this aspect of the design doesn't fit with the Harbour. I don't think it's unreasonable to be critical of it at all.

Considering the average household income of VicWest is around $75k I doubt many in the hood are looking to buy a slip here. I could be wrong but I live in VicWest and I just don't see it. In fact I'm curious how many mega yacht owners there even are in Victoria. Or maybe there is pent up demand because there is nowhere to park them.

[Marina-man]

Originally Posted by dasmo

I am all for a Marina there and think the commercial is a much welcome addition. It's the type of marina I object to... This is a case where nothing would be preferable. There isn't a hole or derelict building there. I'm sure the original plan didn't call for a mega yacht marina exclusive to non-residence of the Songhees...

I agree this is a working harbour! This proposal is a little like Point Hope being a shipyard exclusively for US workers but we can sell them sandwiches and look at the cool boats they are building!

Hi everyone, Lachlan MacLean of WAM Development Group here. We're the marina proponents, and owners of two of the water lots involved in the marina project. Looks like lots of good debate going on. Dasmo, you're right that the plan didn't call for a "mega yacht" marina. Our original plans, dating back to 2006, included a wide variety of slip sizes. It was Transport Canada who put an end to that, requiring us to start at 65' in order to work within the existing Harbour Traffic Management Plan. Their fear was that smaller vessels, which are required to transit along the southern side of the harbour in front of Fisherman's Wharf, would then have to cut across the main shipping channel and Alpha runway at 90 degrees to access our marina site. TC saw the potential for safety issues with smaller yachts suddenly appearing in front of a landing floatplane, for instance.

Under the existing traffic plan, vessels 65' and above don't use the southern transit lane, they use the main shipping channel (which is also Alpha runway). Yachts coming to Victoria International Marina would travel down the shipping channel rather than cutting across it, then turn north into our location. TC felt this would significantly reduce the chance of surprises or conflicts. As a result, we had to redesign the marina slips to start at 65'.

That reduced the potential audience for the marina slips. But most marinas in BC were built at least 30 years ago, if not more. (Port Sidney is probably the sole exception in the region, and it's now over 20 years old.) 30 years ago, the average size of recreational yachts was smaller than it is now. Many BC marinas now struggle to accommodate a growing proportion of today's yachts due to increased length, and beam, of yachts being purchased. Often, the inhibiting factor to a person buying the yacht they want is not the price, it's the fact that they can't find a place to moor it. And that demand for larger moorage includes people from Victoria.

Our redesign included a kayak storage facility and launch/landing dock. When the City downzoned the provincial water lot in September 2010, we lost a significant portion of the waterspace available, including the area we had designated for the kayak storage. We are still keen to include some form of kayak dock in the facility to provide access to the upland, including the coffee house, Lime Bay Park, and Spinnakers.

[Sparky]

Thank you for sharing that Lachlan.

[Baro]

Thanks for the extremely fine explanation as to why things are how they are. Also once again the city down-zones or forces a project to cut back, so of course the more public amenities are first to go. We lost the art-deco spire and facad work on the Sussex, we lost the affordable housing in gateway green, we lost a free art gallery, and now we're losing the kayak facilities on this project. All due to the city's obsession with taking a pound of flesh from every project, then turning around and calling them greedy when they can't afford or fit certain items. No on benefits from these cut backs, why does the city keep making them?

[Marina-man]

I note Dasmo's concerns that the marina will be "monochromatic", to which I'd respond that is only the case if you're only considering vessel length. There's an incredible diversity of yacht design and aesthetic for vessels 65' and above, including trawlers, sports yachts, flybridges, sailboats, pilot house..I could go on. Van Isle Marina up in Sidney has about 50 slips for yachts over 70', it's a fun walk along the docks to check out the variety of vessels in those slips, why would it be any different in the Songhees?

[Baro]

That's true I've seen everything from big fishing boats, to sail boats, to traditional luxury power-boat style yachts, to those cool looking tugboat style guys.

But we're getting pretty picky now. It's like being upset at a garage being built in your neighbourhood "only having luxury cars which all look the same".

[Mike K.]

Dasmo, I know you know very well that the average household income of Vic West is nowhere near the average household income or net worth of Songhees residents. You're a resident of Vic West wealthy enough to live in the Songheese neighborhood. As far as your neighborhood's wealth, you and your neighbours represent the upper echelons of wealth in the City of Victoria. Let's not try to paint the Songheese as some sort of working man's neighborhood fighting gentrification.

Lachlan, thank you for your input. It's always good to get a reality check with debates like this.

[Marina-man]

Victoria International Marina will be exhibiting at the Victoria Harbour Boat Show next week, April 19th - 22nd at Ship Point. I'll be there all four days, 11am - 6pm Thursday and Friday, and 10am - 5pm Saturday and Sunday, answering any questions you might have about the marina.

Tickets for the show can be purchased online at up to 25% off the walk-up rate, go to the BCYBA website here http://www.bcyba.com/contentpage.asp...ctoriaboatshow for details. Kids 16 and under get in free.

There's about 200 new and used boats on display, plus about 50 exhibitors on land, so it's a great day out on the Inner Harbour.

[dasmo]

Marina-man, Sounds like a brutal bureaucratic minefield to navigate...You most certainly have my sympathies there. it took my late father four years just to get a building permit once... I think having kayak / small vessel integration of some sort would go a long way into better community integration. It would benefit the yacht owners as well. This way they can take their Whitehall Tyee's out for an evening spin with less hassle. Perhaps something integrated into the lower areas of the commercial buildings?

[dasmo]

Mike, with maximum respect, please don't mischaracterize my words, this way I can stop posting in this darn thread in order to stick up for myself! I don't live in the Songhees, I didn't claim people in the Songhees are " the working man's neighborhood fighting gentrification". (Although I would find it surprising to meet someone there who has spent three times as much on their boat than their condo.)

I am tossing in my opinion on the project and how the mega yacht aspect of the marina does not offer much to the neighborhood, IMO. I think the commercial is a very welcome addition and a marina is a good fit there in general, it's too bad it's not (or can't) be one for us city dwellers.

[Mike K.]

Originally Posted by Dasmo

I'm 65 and I have my condo in the Songhees and I can stroll down to my boat to work on it before taking it out in the spring.

I'm not sure what it is you may have meant when you wrote the above, but I took the above to mean you live in the Songhees.

With respect to my other comments, you asserted that "There is not one person in the Songhees with a 2 -20 million dollar Yacht waiting for a place to park it," to which I replied that there are individuals living in the Songhees that own expensive boats and are looking at this marina as a possible location to store their boat.

You further asserted that the average income in Vic West is $75k and therefore this marina will not service the boats of any locals. But your numbers sidestep the obvious wealth within the Songhees neighbourhood where this marina will be built. Plenty of condos in the Songhees are valued in excess of $1-million and we can be certain that there are residents there with enough wealth to afford expensive vessels.

I mean no disrespect either, dasmo, I'm just responding to your statements as I interpret them through my own point of view and knowledge of the Songhees neighbourhood

[VicHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by dasmo

(Although I would find it surprising to meet someone there who has spent three times as much on their boat than their condo.)

65'ers starting at $100k:

http://www.boatquest.com/All/Manufac...sort=price_low

Lots of Songhees condos for over $1M

http://www.lesleefarrell.com/luxury-...s-rd/index.asp

[Bingo]

I like the concept of this marina. However, as a former boater I would like to see more protection from the prevailing westerly winds that blow into the harbour. If you check out other locations in the harbour you will see that boats are tucked away out of the westerly winds such as at West Bay, and on the windward shore at Fishermans Wharf.

A rock breakwater to protect the wharves and reduce the swell will make this location more appealing to the yacht owners.

Originally Posted by Mike K.

I'm not so sure this marina will cause many of the problems raised. In fact it will bring sorely needed commercial services to this part of Vic West and make good use of the shore.

[Hotel Mike]

Anybody know the latest schedule of when work will start on the marina?

[MarkoJ]

I was emailed the following formal release that might interest some:

"Hi,


After four years of stick-handling the Victoria International Marina project through a veritable maze of permitting, I’m handing the reins to my esteemed colleague Larry Halgren. Effective immediately, Larry will take over as Project Lead for the Marina project.


Larry has over 35 years’ experience in the marine industry and has operated his own international marina and waterfront consulting firm, Halgren and Associates LLC for the last 10 years. He has extensive knowledge of marina and waterfront development, operations, infrastructure and marina components and has worked with clients across the USA, China, Australia, Canada and Japan. His broad knowledge of marina operations and waterfront developments will be a valuable asset to the Victoria International Marina as it progresses to construction.



It’s been a pleasure working on this unique project, and I wish Larry and the Victoria International Marina project all the best.


Kind regards,
Lachlan MacLean"

[dasmo]

Looking at that picture again I am reminded about how out of place this project is. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of the "condo desert" either but a mega yacht storage facility just doesn't belong there. Just look at how it's an affront to the entire community across from it. If they had built some serious luxury towers in that area, then I could relate. Something like this would be better served blended into a larger already established marina. A "mixed use" marina would be a much, much better fit.

[MarkCB]

^It really is all in the eye of the beholder because I look at that picture and see a natural fit for the area. I'm excited to look at the "mega yachts" when I walk by, which at least 3 times a week. And that recessed half-circle the marina is centered on looks like it was designed with this in mind. It truly looks, to me, like a perfect fit for that exact location.

[gumgum]

What the Songhees residents don't realize is that the neighbourhood will probably increase in value by association with a mega-yatch marina. Pretty sad they didn't think of that.