Victoria's ghosts

[aastra]

Right now there's 0 evidence for ghosts, only cultural/superstitious reasons for believing in them.

So you're saying anybody who claims to have seen a ghost is fabricating a story for cultural/superstitious reasons? Is that really scientific?

[aastra]

Believing something for which there is not only a total lack evidence but not even the most simple of basic theories or definitions isn't open minded is the very definition of being close minded.

So if I see a ghost tonight, the most open-minded thing I could do would be to never think about my sighting again and never mention it to anybody? What the heck is open-minded about that? It's never open-minded to try to impose a predetermined world view upon the world. Inquire.

[Ms. B. Havin]

Originally Posted by Zimquats

Aastra could have done a way better photoshop than was done on that picture....

...Like photoshop your indescribably handsome face into it? :-)

@ amor de cosmos and his reference to Bill Gates: if you want to see something truly paranormal, watch this 18 second clip. It scientifically proves the existence of forces beyond our normal ken. And Connie Chung was there!

[Nparker]

Originally Posted by aastra

Some people don't like the idea that the soul might go on. But whether or not you like the idea has no bearing on whether or not the soul goes on. It does or it doesn't. But even if it does go on, that doesn't mean that any/all ghost incidents involve a disembodied soul.

Something that does not exist (the soul) cannot go on after death. End of story.

[aastra]

Yeah, but that's your personal religious belief. Your personal religious beliefs do not affect reality for me or anybody else (including you), even if you think that they do. I can agree with you 100% and it doesn't change a thing. It doesn't mean a thing.

I think the best current example of beliefs clouding rationality might be the whole cougars-returning-to-their-old-ranges phenomenon. As many of you probably know, there are cougar flaps happening just about every day all over the United States and eastern Canada as well. The most famous recent incident was the police shooting of a large wild cougar in a dense Chicago neighbourhood a few weeks ago.

Anyway, time and time again the cougar experts in the jurisdiction in question will insist that there are no wild cougars in X, despite the sightings. Cougars are extinct (extirpated). They'll also insist that it's very unusual for cougars to enter populated areas and almost unheard of for cougars to come right into the city.

And yet time and time again there are literally hundreds of reports (official and anecdotal) of wild cougars in jurisdiction x, usually spanning decades. Cougars are coming into neighbourhoods, sometimes even making a go of it in neighbourhoods. Sometimes cougars are even coming right downtown (Victorians would probably be amused to learn that just about every time a cougar goes downtown in an american city, the local media claims it's the first time anyone has ever heard of such a thing).

The real world is practically beating people over the head with the fact: wild cougars are returning to their old ranges in a big way. And yet supposedly scientific officials all over the place are in a condition of total denial because the possibility of wild cougars coming back is just too distasteful to their personal beliefs to even contemplate. That sort of denial is a hair's breadth away from insanity. And yet we're talking about COUGARS!

[KublaKhan]

Originally Posted by Nparker

Something that does not exist (the soul) cannot go on after death. End of story.

Boy-o-boy are you gonna be sorry you said that, Mister.

[Baro]

next time you encounter a ghost gather some evidence, that's what you should do. Also think of existing proven theories that could explain what you encountered without falling back on the "ghost" explanation. Have you actually clearly seen/interacted with some classic hollywood ghost? What exactly have you experienced that makes you sure it was a ghost and not ANYTHING else?

Tricks of the mind and eye are proven, ghosts are not. Go with what is most likely and toss out what doesn't make a lick of sense.


It's the same sort of thinking that we often fight against in this city in regard to people's downright superstitious beliefs about how a city works. Humans are blessed and cursed with a knack of finding patters/explanations for everything, and sometimes we'll construct patters and explanations for things that really aren't related. Skyscrapers density makes crime! More highways will solve our traffic problems! Even when you demonstrate there's no evidence for their theories and even present them evidence to the contrary the stubborn and closed minded will hold onto their wrongfounded theories.

You're presenting a theory that ghosts, souls, and such things paranormal exist and interact with our world. Interesting theory, but you gotta provide some evidence. How would you feel if someone came to you and said "you know, I think core density creates crime, lowers land value, hurts the environment, and increases traffic!" you'd probably ask why they think that or try to explain how their theory doesn't hold water. They'll most likely retort "Well everyone knows that! I was in hong kong and that city has terribly high density and it was dirty and crowded, this is a fact!". They've observed a phenomenon and come up with a intuitive explanation that totally makes sense in their mind, even though its totally wrong. Some people, when explained the benefits of density and how to do it right will have an "ah ha!" moment and change their outlook. Others are unable to accept their "gut intuition" is fallible and hold onto their theories, often concocting elaborate justifications.

Do you think that perhaps there's a chance your "ghost theory" is simply an explanation that, although intuitive to you personally, may in fact not hold water when closely examined (much like the above theory of density causing pollution) ? It's worth examining. Pretend you've never heard of ghosts or anything paranormal and look back at your experiences and memories where you've encountered ghosts. Is there perhaps a non-paranormal explanation?

[Nparker]

Originally Posted by aastra

Yeah, but that's your personal religious belief.

Actually my statement above regarding the soul (or lack thereof) is my NON-religious belief. Religion, like the soul, and other non-provable constructs, is a man-made mythology (or more accurately mythologIES) used to qualify our existence outside of scientific/rational explanation. I will support each person's choice to believe in whatever mythology brings them comfort, but please do not mistake my non-belief in a soul as "religious". It is a conclusion I have drawn based on all the scientific and measureable evidence available to me.

[aastra]

All buildings in Victoria should be 8 stories or less because there are no buildings in Victoria that are taller than that. It doesn't matter what you say or what my eyes and ears report. It is a conclusion I have drawn based on all the scientific and measurable evidence available to me.

Not only that, but we've got general consensus on the matter. Only a few skeptics will disagree with the widely accepted view. Skeptics are nuts, so I dismiss them.

[Zimquats]

Next thing you know all you ghost 'believers' are going to try to tell me the world isn't flat either. ppphhht, I'll read no more of this nonesense!! Somebody get me a mirror...

[Nparker]

Originally Posted by aastra

All buildings in Victoria should be 8 stories or less because there are no buildings in Victoria that are taller than that.

Except of course for the fact that there are numerous buildings in Victoria that ARE taller than 8 stories. Or does your religion prohibit you from seeing these as part of its dogma?

[aastra]

Also think of existing proven theories that could explain what you encountered without falling back on the "ghost" explanation. Have you actually clearly seen/interacted with some classic hollywood ghost? What exactly have you experienced that makes you sure it was a ghost and not ANYTHING else?

Me? What do I have to do with it? I've never seen a ghost. As far as I'm concerned, ghosts don't exist.

The phenomenon does indeed exist, however. People see and hear and experience all sorts of things that get lumped in together as ghosts or something ghostly.

But what the hell's a ghost?? Darned if I know. Darned if anybody knows.

That's the whole point. Nobody knows. But some people want to think they know. Even though I have no evidence, I know exactly what a ghost is, and since my take on ghosts is ridiculous and/or unpalatable to my world view, I therefore know that ghosts can't possibly exist.

Anybody who goes through that process and chooses to disbelieve in ghosts is just as irrational as somebody who goes through that process and chooses to believe in ghosts.

And yet, one of them might be right. Or not.

[aastra]

Except of course for the fact that there are numerous buildings in Victoria that ARE taller than 8 stories. Or does your religion prohibit you from seeing these as part of its dogma?

40 years and counting and I've never seen one. I know some loons who claim there are lots of them. Those people are loons.

[aastra]

Do you think that perhaps there's a chance your "ghost theory" is simply an explanation that, although intuitive to you personally, may in fact not hold water when closely examined (much like the above theory of density causing pollution) ? It's worth examining.

I've never seen a ghost and I don't believe in ghosts. But my personal beliefs are irrelevant. I'm advising people not to let their beliefs muck with their learning and their understanding of the world. Disbelief is no more or less sophisticated than belief. Negativity is no more or less sophisticated than positivity. Remove yourself from the equation.

Pretend you've never heard of ghosts or anything paranormal and look back at your experiences and memories where you've encountered ghosts. Is there perhaps a non-paranormal explanation?

So now you guys are agreeing with the very first point I made? What goes around comes around.

What's paranormal? Paranormal is relative. Something is paranormal simply because it's not understood. And what's paranormal to you won't necessarily be paranormal to me. Example: I know that cougars come into cities all the time. Somebody who doesn't know that might refuse to believe it even if they were to see a cougar in town with their own eyes. The TC made a big gaff several years ago during a cougar flap. The very day that they got fed up and decided to dismiss the reports on the front page was the day the reports were confirmed. Can't take that front page back.

Plenty of flesh-and-blood animals have made the transition from folklore, fantasy and the supernatural into the mundane everyday world. When they were unconfirmed and mysterious they were paranormal. When they were finally confirmed and stuck in zoos they were just animals. In fact, all along, they were what they were. Nothing more, nothing less. The confrontation of belief-versus-disbelief and the naive emotional entanglements that human beings love to waste so much time with were of no consequence in the end. They never are.

Plenty of electrical, magnetic and chemical processes have made the same transition from magic to mundane.

[aastra]

Except of course for the fact that there are numerous buildings in Victoria that ARE taller than 8 stories.

I've yet to hear one reputable scientist confirm this claim.

And if ever I hear a reputable scientist confirm this claim, I'm going to make it my mission to destroy his reputation.

[Caramia]

There are ghosts. What remains to be shown is if they are subjective, or objective.

[Baro]

Aastra you seem to be taking this a little personally and making some rather defensive arguments, let's just have a friendly conversation on this. I'm really not sure the point you're making with buildings and such. I'm just trying to determine why you say you believe in ghosts, what evidence has convinced you that they exist? The height of existing buildings in victoria isn't an issue in which there is any scientific doubt or contention, we both know this and it's dishonest to come up with silly comparisons like that. Someone may be mistaken in regard to the heights of our buildings out of ignorance, but it's extremely easy to rectify, so perhaps I'm ignorant on some ghost related evidence and you could rectify my current provisional conclusions.

I'm open to any ghost related evidence, and I'm sure the world would be extremely excited to know what you know. It would rock our very idea of how the universe works to its very core, we'd have to re-think almost all our theories. I'm not trying to play semantic word games or make ridiculous comparisons, please don't thrash about like you're under personal attack. I'm genuinely interested in what you believe about ghosts and what evidence/experiences have lead you to believe such creatures exist.

[G-Man]

I believe Aastra said he didn't himself believe in ghosts. His argument is with everyone elses flimsy arguments.

[gumgum]

I tend to agree with aastra's point. If the "there's no compelling evidence" argument was as weighty as some would think, then we would have to assume that no extra-terrestrials exist either. And as many know, that's pretty much a mathematical impossibility.

[KublaKhan]

I'm reminded of the Christmas I worked at the Banff Springs Hotel, back when I was a lad full of promise and vim and vigor and lots of bravado.

I was assigned the task of sorting through boxes and boxes and boxes of seasonal ornaments high up in an attic that overlooked the hotel grounds. It was a spectacular view, and the landscape was blanketed in new snow, and a sliver of moon cut the darkness like a scythe.

Right then. There I was, boxes, party hats and reindeer antlers made of velvet. Noise makers. Those little fake presents you tie to Christmas Tree branches that the cat always tries to tear down before knocking the tree over. It was a huge task, and it was a huge hotel, and I was alone in a vast poorly lit space at the top of a very old hotel.

I was alone for hours, and the place was quiet and still. I had the distinct impression that someone was standing off in a corner...that 'being watched' feeling...but when I turned to look, sure enough I was alone. This went on for some time. I called out "Hello?" and got nothing. I walked around the attic and inspected and poked and kicked and maybe I saw some mouse ****, but that was pretty much it as far as signs of life went.

I felt a chilling draft swirl around my face, as though someone had opened a door quickly, and I heard what I thought were footsteps.

It wasn't a threatening feeling, but it was certainly...um, uplifting. Heightened, alert, responsive. I told my supervisor about it and he wasn't surprised. Apparently, that attic was a favoured spot for some old gent who hung around long after he died. Guests would report being greeted by an elderly gentleman in vintage costume who would escort them to their rooms. It's one of the hotel's more popular ghost stories.

Believe it or not...

[aastra]

Did your wife lock you in the pantry in the basement shortly after that?

[aastra]

I'm really not sure the point you're making with buildings and such.

I get it so I'll drop it. But you don't ever need to worry about me being offended. I don't get offended. I just exchange ideas.

The height of existing buildings in victoria isn't an issue in which there is any scientific doubt or contention...

Say what? I made it my personal mission over the past eight years to challenge the prevailing consensus that there aren't any highrises in Victoria because in fact there are plenty. Is the mission accomplished? Can I finally rest?

I'm not trying to play semantic word games or make ridiculous comparisons, please don't thrash about like you're under personal attack.

I must have missed something. You could firebomb my house as a counterargument and I still wouldn't take any offense.

I don't care about personalities. I'm surprised that hasn't come through over the years. I don't have a political bone in my body. All I care about is ideas. Forget the who; I'm interested in the what and why.

[amor de cosmos]

does anybody have any stories about ghosts in Victoria?

[aastra]

I believe somebody claims to have seen Isabella Ross on Dallas Road fairly recently.

[aastra]

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimesc...7f4869&k=66650