Victoria's ghosts

[aastra]

I think this thread is a test to see how we'll all do together when the local construction scene really dries up.

[Rorschach]

Originally Posted by KublaKhan

...we might trade literary references, and we'd feel educated and well-read instead of simply simple.

Come on now you did make an obscure Seinfeld reference -- which I got! Give me a little credit. I have trouble communicating with everyone. My concepts don't click with everyone but fortunately the ones that don't get it are not the intended recipients anyway.

Every story needs a protagonist and an antagonist. Without my antagonism there would be a lot less to discuss. I'm always telling a story. But I'll try to temper my "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" tendencies. How's that for an obscure reference?

[Nparker]

Originally Posted by Rorschach

But I'll try to temper my "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" tendencies. How's that for an obscure reference?

Star Trek: The Next Generation. Season 5. Episode: "Darmok". Where Picard and company were trying to communicate with a species that only speaks in metaphors.

[Baro]

When the walls fell....

edit

damn nparker beat me to the nerd-punch

[G-Man]

Wow that is scarier than ghosts.

[Rorschach]

I'm impressed. But I always have been at this board. Aren't you glad that I use the movie references? It could be worse, I could resort to Star Trek references.

[Holden West]

Excellent. We have several new visitors to our NerdFest event.



It's so low-budget we have to use last year's banner.

[KublaKhan]

Originally Posted by Rorschach

Come on now you did make an obscure Seinfeld reference --

I did. But I took a long hot shower after I hit SUBMIT REPLY (I'm returning Campbell's $100).

Every story needs a protagonist and an antagonist. Without my antagonism there would be a lot less to discuss.

I though I was the antagonist. Now we've really got a problem.

[KublaKhan]

Originally Posted by Holden West

Excellent. We have several new visitors to our NerdFest event.



It's so low-budget we have to use last year's banner.

...yer killin me.

[Rorschach]

David Letterman's tribute to Bill Gates' retirement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NoGbLI3ePA

[KublaKhan]

Originally Posted by Rorschach

David Letterman's tribute to Bill Gates' retirement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NoGbLI3ePA

I use a Mac, thus, I don't get the joke.

[Rorschach]

Originally Posted by KublaKhan

I use a Mac, thus, I don't get the joke.

Me too. Starts up quick, never crashes, does everything fast, everything is easy to install, and shuts down fast. I can't see why more people don't convert and forget the headaches of Windows. And now the Apple computers can run Windows if you absolutely have to.

As far as Gates, he's the richest man in the world - a nerd. And all you people ridiculing nerds seem to recognize all the nerdy references just fine so obviously you are posing as non-nerds. You can't fool me.

[Caramia]

Only us nerds are allowed to make nerd jokes...

[Rorschach]

Originally Posted by Caramia

Only us nerds are allowed to make nerd jokes...

Isn't participation here proof of one's nurdidity?

[Holden West]

Ghosts? No, just another scam

Times Colonist
Published: Monday, July 14, 2008

It's highly ironic that the event co-ordinator for the Got Ghosts Conference, Lisa Reyna, should pronounce, "There's a lot of scam artists out there."

The entire paranormal and psychic industry is a scam, filled with self-proclaimed "experts" who use bad science and old magician's tricks such as cold reading to bilk money from their gullible customers.

Their methods have absolutely no scientific basis, their claims have never been proven in a controlled laboratory environment using double-blind trials, and they slough off any criticism by claiming that non-believers cannot benefit from their efforts.

As P.T. Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

Ian Skinner

Victoria

[KublaKhan]

Originally Posted by Rorschach

Isn't participation here proof of one's nurdidity?

No.

[Caramia]

Old Skool geek-core.

[Rorschach]

Je me sens vraiment entre amis.

[G-Man]

The entire paranormal and psychic industry is a scam, filled with self-proclaimed "experts" who use bad science and old magician's tricks such as cold reading to bilk money from their gullible customers.

Sounds familiar:



PECK
(adrenalin pumping)
I'm Walter Peck, sir. And I'm prepared to
make a full report.
(holds up dossier)
These men are complete snowball artists.
They use nerve and sense gases to induce
hallucinations. The people think they're
seeing ghosts and call these bozos, who
conveniently show up to get rid of the
problem with a fake electronic light show.

MAYOR
(to Venkman)
You using nerve gas?

VENKMAN
The man is a psychopath, Your Honor.

PECK
Probably a mixture of gases, no doubt stolen
from the Army ...

STANTZ
********!!!

PECK
... improperly stored and touched off with
those high-voltage laser beams they use in
their light show. They caused an explosion.

So you are siding with this loser. I am with the Ghostbusters.

[KublaKhan]

Originally Posted by G-Man

Sounds familiar:



PECK
(adrenalin pumping)
I'm Walter Peck, sir. And I'm prepared to
make a full report.
(holds up dossier)
These men are complete snowball artists.
They use nerve and sense gases to induce
hallucinations. The people think they're
seeing ghosts and call these bozos, who
conveniently show up to get rid of the
problem with a fake electronic light show.

MAYOR
(to Venkman)
You using nerve gas?

VENKMAN
The man is a psychopath, Your Honor.

PECK
Probably a mixture of gases, no doubt stolen
from the Army ...

STANTZ
********!!!

PECK
... improperly stored and touched off with
those high-voltage laser beams they use in
their light show. They caused an explosion.

So you are siding with this loser. I am with the Ghostbusters.

Ditto.

[Cadborosaurus]

Originally Posted by Caramia

Don't forget Mystic Spring! That's a classic ghost spot... and has been 'mystic' since before colonization.

As a matter of fact, there is not, nor has there ever been a Mystic Spring. The name Mystic Spring was made up by the late ex-news paper editor David Williams Higgins. He was a politician who's writings were just absolutely imbued with misinformation. The legend of the Mystic Spring is loosely based on fragments of true aboriginal folklore and practices in addition to two real events in the 1860s regarding two women. However, not only does the story have serious errors in the details, but the Mystic Spring itself never existed. Given the ethnocentric nature of the story, it is easy to deduce that Higgins got his info on the native tradition from general talks in the white community and not from qualified aboriginal informants. Nevertheless, the story was successfully leaked into the realm of credible and valid literature. Most people in Victoria who read about it still think the Mystic Spring existed. Worse yet, the legend, via the print press, was attributed to Coast Salish oral tradition so many times to the point where people today think the Mystic Spring existed in Coast Salish folklore. The legend of the Mystic Spring first written in Feb 1904 in the British Colonist and then was repeated in the first chapter of the book The Mystic Spring and Other Tales of Western Life (1904). That same year, he made up the name Mystic Vale which he named after the Mystic Spring. The 'Mystic' names in, or associated with Cadboro Bay, are named after the Mystic Spring. Those names include Mystic Lane, Mystic Creek (Hobbs Creek which is named after Frank Hobbs), Mystic Spring Cottage and the name very well known today: Mystic Vale. This ravine exists on the eastern grounds of the University of Victoria Campus. Mystic Vale is named after the Mystic Spring. Higgins made up the name Mystic Vale in 1904 (although he did not mention the name in the book). However, the name did not become popular till the late 70s in light of the proposals to develop the ravine. Before then, it was unofficially and locally known as Mystic Spring Ravine, the Ravine, Mystic Springs or Mystic Creek Ravine (as shown in the Martlet on Jan 30, 1964). It is important to note that aboriginals did not have a name for Mystic Vale or for its creek which carved it over hundreds of years. Even more important, is the fact that even if the Mystic Spring existed, there would have been absolutely nothing special about it. To understand this, you need to look at the matter from the Aboriginal perspective.
According to Coast Salish beliefs, ponds and springs are often held as sacred and have legends attached to them. There is a realm of a power spirits classified as Stleluqum which inhabited secluded bodies of water (isolated ponds, secluded creeks etc). Those spirits could harm or benefit people. To encounter those spirits, Coast Salish members did bathing rituals called Kwaythut in the secluded water. Seclusion was essential. For example, once the pond lost its natural seclusion, the pond would stop providing powers to ritual bathers but the spirit would still remain in the pond. Additionally, only experienced/qualified people should attempt to encounter Stleluqum. If the person was not, then s/he would suffer. Ritual bathing was also done to cure infertility and enhance puberty in girls. A still pool of water offered a mythical inversion whereby everything was opposite to the real world. If someone looked into a natural still pool, s/he would see the reflection of a future partner. The sacred ponds I have mentioned so far, existed not only throughout Mystic Vale, but throughout the Coast Salish world. For example, in Summit Park (formerly Smith Hill) there was a natural pond where Aboriginal women looked into to see the reflection of future husbands. In conclusion, there were ponds throughout Mystic Vale that had the characteristic normally only attributed today to Mystic Spring. Also, there is a subterranean water movement which enters Hobbs Creek at various locations. In other words, Mystic Vale get's springs and not just one. This water movement does not flow as defined "springs" and historically, the springs fed the sacred pools in the creek. Most of the underground water which entered Mystic Vale came from aquifer 686 Gordon Head III which startes just south of the UVic campus. Today, aboriginals refer to those springs as "Mystic Springs" but this name came from Higgins.

And there is that amazing huge and ancient maple tree which, according to Higgins, guarded the Mystic Spring. According to Higgins, it was cut down in about 1888. Photography from before this time shows Hobbs Creek flowing through Cadboro Bay. No big maple trees are apparent. The photo from 1859 (taken form the uplands) shows Mystic Vale extending from northern Oak Bay and all the way through Cadboro Bay. No huge maple tree are visible. the largest trees visible are a fir tree and a Garry Oak. This photo is available on the website of the Royal BC Museum.


The legend of the Mystic Spring has confused the hell out of people for the last 100 or so years. So much so, even credible and prominent authors, historians and professors fell for the legend of the Mystic Spring. Different sources give different locations of the same pond.

-According to David Williams Higgins, the pool of the Mystic Spring was located inside the ravine of Mystic Vale right next to the creek at the foot of the huge maple tree which was located on the side of the ravine hill. The water of the Mystic Spring flowed from the side of the ravine hill, past the roots of the maple tree and formed a pool below which was isolated from the creek. But according to Coast Salish oral tradition, the springs did form pools that were isolated from the creek. The Wsanic' and Songhees oral traditions speak of a secluded pond along Hobbs Creek but most of its water came from the creek. Even though the pools of Mystic Vale were fed to a small degree by springs, they got most of the water from the creek. Therefore, they were creek ponds and not spring pools.

-The article titled Songhees Knew Trench Warfare from July 12, 1922 says it is near the Yacht Club under an asphalt road.
-One source says it is under Gyro park.
-A famous Victoria historian told me (by pin pointing the location on a map) that it is the pond next to Hibbens Close. S/he also added that the water comes out of that pond and flows through a pond system south of Cadboro Bay Road. This pond system includes the artificial Mystic Pond on Waring street.
-Some people actually think that Mystic Pond is the original Mystic Spring. All I gotta say is, I hope that is not the reason why someone bought a house next to MYSTIC pond. According to a letter written in Dec 1977, C.H. Wakelin thought Mystic Pond, which he lived on, was a "natural feature" of Cadboro Bay!
-From the 30s to the 50s, a man named Inglis Williams deliberately lied and mistakenly claimed that the original Mystic Spring exited on his property at 2555 Sinclair. He set it up as a tourist attraction and charged people money to drink the underground drainage. It was not even a spring.
-The article topomystica by paul chamberlain gave two different locations in the same article!!
There other reasons for this confusion. One reason is the creation of the artificial ponds and springs in Cadboro Bay in the 30s and 40s. In fact, an areal photo of Cadboro Bay taken in 1928, shows those ponds did not exist. Another reason is the misunderstanding some factual information. A huge maple tree does not mean an old one. Maples grow quickly. Moreover, maples do not live up to more than about 200 years. Therefore, a maple tree would not have been exceptionally old in Mystic Vale which, even today, has 500 year old trees. There is also a confusion regarding what constitues a spring to begin with. Not any underground water which emerges above ground is a spring water. A spring gets its water from the underground aquifer, not an underground creek or underground sewage water. Another term for springs is mineral water. The ultimate source of springs is precipitation. Once precipitation infiltrates the ground, it reaches and aquifer thus giving rise to its water table which reaches the surface as a spring(s).

Yaser Mohammed
University of Victoria Sustainability Project (UVSP)

[carolyn]

I was a guest in the hotel and restaurant at the old Cherry Bank Hotel in the early 1970ties. I experienced the sounds of two little children running up and down the hall outside our hotel room there in the wee small hours of the morning.

I went to the door to tell them to keep it down, thinking they were escaped guests from one of the rooms and of course there was nothing there. No way could they have escaped if they were regular kids running around.

The sounds that woke me up were giggling children and I could tell one was a girl and one a boy about maybe 7 years of age or less. I could see what looked like the shadows of little feet under the door of our room.

When I couldn't see anyone there I freaked out and we changed hotels quickly that early morning but at the desk, after we told the innkeeper of our experiences, it was then that he told us that there were other sightings of the two ghost children. YIKES. I heard that they had names, now I forget what they were, but these 2 were actual living children at one time who lived in the hotel.

The image has stayed with me all these years, on and off, and I was wondering if anyone has ever had similar experiences or seen other photos of images at the hotel. Your image is the only one I have seen.

Thanks.

[carolyn]

No one believes in ghosts, til they see one. lol