Development in Gordon Head

[mat]

We have recently moved to Gordon Head from Belgium. While certainly enjoying the neighbourhood, and the city, there are many issues that raise concerns.

Out of necessity public transport in Europe is excellent and affordable - and small shops (groceries, magazine stores etc.) are well located even in suburbs. Here we need a car even for simple trips to purchase basic groceries. This adds to pollution, congestion and safety issues on our roads. I am also concerned about the lack of sidewalks on the streets leading to schools like Hillcrest elementary, which our son attends.

The demographic in Gordon Head is rapidly changing. Younger families are moving in, houses have more rooms for students (another issue!); density and traffic are increasing. Would it not be prudent for Saanich council to look at development in this area and actively seek lots that could be turned into commercial space so we could walk/bike to local stores, rather than be reliant on the car?

[gumgum]

Suburban neighbourhoods such as Gordan Head are typical in any Canadian city.
I wouldn't go as far as to defend the less infrastucture in the outlying areas. But the structure and dynamics of a European city is completely different than here. Belgium is a much more dense country; and with regards to Begian suburbia, the word has an entirely different meaning. The disparity of densities between a European core and it's suburban neighbour is far less there than here. The higher tax base from this higher desnsity allows for a higher flow of money that can and is poured into infracsture in these surburban areas. Also the geographical distance between a European suburb and its core is far less.
Plus, many, if not most of the time, a European suburb was once a self sufficient village. And villages are vastly better designed that the typical Canadian suburb IMO.
Basically, Canada is a very sparse and spread out country, and our cities' design reflect that.
Now Victoria is slightly different than the rest of Canada is, in that our space is far more finite than most, but as far as I percieve it, it isn't something that locals have really become aware of until the last decade or two.
The way I see it, if you really want to see better infrastructure, then I'd either consider moving closer to the core, or encouraging local governtment to allow more, higher dense developements in GH in increase the tax base.

Also keep in mind that the Greater Victoria area is only about 350,000, which is tiny.
I would love to see more regional areas like Europe has, but they do have their dissadvantges as well.

[G-Man]

Hi mat,

Welcome to the forum. I think that there is going to be more density coming that way but it will be up to residents in the area to approve it. Often one time suburban neighbourhoods are loathe to accept the encroachment of higher densities because it is perceived to bring about the problems of "the city".

I have been vocal on this forum in that I belive that the transit system should be building LRT to the university rather than to the West Comms with it running up Shellbourne and turning on Mackenzie to Uvic. Of course this also would carry with it higher densities.

[Oxford Sutherland]

Gordon Head would be better if it had a village area similar to Estevan or Cook Street village.

Put it somewhere like the corner of San Juan Ave & Tyndall Ave.

[Galvanized]

^San Juan and Tyndall would be perfect. Too bad when the last farm was developed a few years ago on the west side of Tyndall between SJ and Kenmore they couldn't have gone mixed use instead of the SFD's that went up.

Mat, most of Saanich was rural just a few decades ago much like today's Metchosin is now. This is why there are so few sidewalks because when Saanich was developed it happened so quickly with such little planning that simple infrastructure was looked over. This is also why Saanich doesn't even have it's own "downtown".

[mat]

Thanks all for your replies - nice to see others are interested. There is a growing trend to increase density in urban cores, mainly to make city centers more vibrant, diverse and community oriented. Done well, it keeps families and employees close to work and services - done badly it creates noise, crime and congestion.

Victoria/Saanich have to realize that UVIC and Camouson are direct employers, and attract 20 000+ students/staff into a small region. There is an opportunity for small businesses to develop, serve the entire community in Gordon Head and help expand the local economy - all I see here is too much regulation for student rentals, not enough transit and no easily reachable shops.

From my house on Grandview Drive, there is only one bus in the morning that goes directly to UVIC. From 8am to 10am the street is constant with traffic - the same from 4pm to 6pm. There are no sidewalks, drivers speed, and it is dangerous for the local kids.

I think Gordon Head can easily support a village idea similar to Cook st.

[VicHockeyFan]

Golly, comparing Gordon Head to Belgium is a bit tricky. I would say that Belgiums density (population per sq. km, for the entire country) must be 4x that of Saanich.

[Holden West]

I'd like to see Belgian transit and density concept in Victoria. I'd also like to see Belgian french fry and waffle stands in Victoria.

[img]http://static.flickr.com/27/53521512_dbf8efd43f_m.jpg[/img] :tup:

[Oxford Sutherland]

Developers are trying to turn Gordon Head into Tuscany :roll:

[VicHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by Oxford Sutherland

Developers are trying to turn Gordon Head into Tuscany :roll:

:lol:

[gumgum]

Originally Posted by VicHockeyFan

Golly, comparing Gordon Head to Belgium is a bit tricky. I would say that Belgiums density (population per sq. km, for the entire country) must be 4x that of Saanich.

I bet Beligium's density must be way higher than 4x ours.
If it ever becomes a similar density, you'll see similar infrasture. 99% of the issue is dollars and cents. Until then, I think it makes sense to push for a local core as others above have sugguested.

[aastra]

"Prague of the Pacific"

"Belgium of B.C."

[mat]

Having fun with this!!

We have in the CRD various villages - all which work well by keeping the local community interacting with local businesses. I was intrigued by the responses to my post - especially the Belgian connection. So here is an idea for a 'unique' concept for Gordon Head.

A village square, in the style of Bruges, Belgium, with a Cafe offering classic cooking - moules et frites, plus all of the 450+ Belgian beers (kids allowed, even in the bar - get a life Canada). A chocolate shop, daily farmers market, craft store...

What we do not need to import from Belgium - rampant racism, corrupt police and politicians (although Canada seems not far behind), %75 taxes, stifling business and more...

Question for all - as an IT person, why do Victoria businesses seem so far behind on having websites? Most small enterprises do not have a website, and if they do they are awful.

Cheers

[G-Man]

Some IT people should see that as an untapped market.

Or perhaps because despite everything we still go outside and shop.

[Walter Moar]

Originally Posted by mat

Question for all - as an IT person, why do Victoria businesses seem so far behind on having websites? Most small enterprises do not have a website, and if they do they are awful.

Woefully off topic, but...

As an IT person, most small businesses do not need websites. Those that don't need them, but get them anyway, are awful. Brochure sites are pointless, and most businesses don't have the technology/money/interest to do anything worthwhile.

For non-interactive businesses, the web sites don't display much more than contact information, address, and hours of operation -- and most of that is hopelessly out of date. This same information can be found in the 'phone book, and it is at least updated once a year.

[Galvanized]

^I'd rather "google" a business than looking for the phone book, let a lone opening it up. My wife's customers made a good point of this because some have complained that the business she works in has no web page with contact info and price list. Therefore it does not exsist in google and they can't find it when doing a search. So in turn she made a MySpace page since the owners refuse to pay for webspace and now it comes up in google. It was free and now the business has another medium of advertising. Businesses who don't have anything on the web are living in the dark age and are losing out on potential earnings which is dumb in my view.


Now back in topic,

Why doesn't Saanich do more in constructing sidewalks on busy roads instead of wasting money on West Saanich Rd in front Mr Grocer which already had sidewalks.

[Mike K.]

I've been designing websites now for over a decade and in my experiences the #1 reason why companies do not have decent websites or websites that are more useful than yesterday's dinner is: inadequate investment.

People fall into the fly-by-night website deals that cost them $500, and expect their website to triple their business and expose their products to the world. Whereas in reality website design is a laborious process that takes both creative skill and knowledge of website design -- both of which are time-intensive and require subsantial know-how and experience. Unless a business hires a professional to design its website (and maintain it) they shouldn't expect any miracles, and their potential customers shouldn't expect much from their website (which, ironically, makes a poor website worthless for the business and a bother to a potential customer).

In order for an experienced web designer to create an attractive and easy-to-use website, the costs have to be adequate. For $500 nobody worth their salt will make any money for the time they must put in to the design, implemention and fine-tuning processes.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah, I live in Gordon Head, and the only thing I don't like about it is the long bus, or drive downtown...you have to catch the 4 route to get downtown in 12 minutes. Try going on the 27 bus route from Shelbourne at Mackenzie, and go all the way downtown, round about 3 30 or 4 00 in the afternoon.
Last time I went, I timed 52 minutes on the dot. Ouch.

350,000 is no where near tiny, though!
1,000 is tiny!

Victoria is considered a mid-size city, and the people here, and the city itself most definatly make it the nicest mid-size city in the world!
Welcome to the forum!

Ben

[gumgum]

I meant tiny in terms relative to populations in the million in ratios compared to desities such as Europe.
Besides, compared to a world standard of a greater metro areas, 350,000 is tiny.

[mat]

Derf et al,

In terms of IT in Victoria/CRD I totally agree -

1: businesses need to realize they need a GOOD web presence, run by competent professionals. Even CMS modules do not meet the job - most of my clients balk at the charges, try to run it themsleves, then come back after 6 months.

2: Victoria businesses do need a web presence - I get it all the time from tourists to recent arrivals, used to 'googling' for local services and suppliers and either not finding what they need, or being re-directed to so-called listing sites, that do not do the job - there is a huge opportunity here.

Now for those who replied on the comparison to Belgium and Gordon Head - yes, density in Belgium as a whole is much higher than the CRD. However, every Belgian town/city has suburbs very similar to those in Saanich and the Western Commuities - the difference is they are planned with commercial/community space within walking distance from most housing. Something that is lacking here.

Cheers

[Holden West]

Best Gordon Head/Website/Belgium thread evar!

[Number Six]

Compared to Europe our gas prices are still relatively cheap. This is changing and hopefully the old post-war suburban model will too.

More importantly I second the notion of more Belgian chocolate shops. Nothing beats a nice piece of Belgian chocolate after washing down a few waffles with a couple of beers, except perhaps a portable defibrillator. :smt119

I propose we name this new Belgian quarter of Gordon Head "Wallonia" ... who wouldn't want to live in Wallonia?!

[mat]

OOOH No way - like Canada Belgium has a language question. Flanders (west) is basically Flemish/Dutch speaking, Wallonia (east) is French. This is why there are so many comparisons between the 2 countries - similar issues.

Now, someone explain this. Of all the EU countries, Belgium is the only one without a tax agreement with Canada, Belgian drivers licenses cannot be directly transferred (all other EU countries can), no Belgian certificates or degrees are acceptable here (they are for Canadians in Belgium)... I can go on.

Cheers

[gumgum]

Now for those who replied on the comparison to Belgium and Gordon Head - yes, density in Belgium as a whole is much higher than the CRD. However, every Belgian town/city has suburbs very similar to those in Saanich and the Western Commuities - the difference is they are planned with commercial/community space within walking distance from most housing. Something that is lacking here.

But were these now Belgian suburbs once villages?
The other thing you have to consider is the European influence there is on infrastructure in Belgium.
Also there must be high a correlation between density of a country and the size of a tax base. A significant portion of infrastucture comes from the federal level.

I'm just trying to get my head around these differences.

[renthefinn]

Belgian beer is the best, like the whitbeer. Chocolate though, I'm not sold on, Fazer is the chocolate for me. I agree we should turn Gordon Head into Belgium, the more Belgian beers the merrier!