[Johnson Street Bridge REPLACEMENT] Funding discussion

[LJ]

Originally Posted by G-Man

So you are saying that private enterprise should be out millions of dollars and we should reorganize our entire harbour because we have a dumb council?

No.

[G-Man]

Um yeah but that will cost more than 30 million.

[VicHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by G-Man

Um yeah but that will cost more than 30 million.

Will it? Point Hope is mostly (all?) on leased City land. What are the lease terms? Are they making so much money they won't take, say $10M to end the lease, sell their equipment and walk away? And the marina on the other side, what is their price to move/quit/change use of the docks?

What does the City make off the Point Hope land compared to what they could sell it for (as that amount could lower your $30M)?

[G-Man]

Yeah but they aren't the only ones that require a lift bridge. There is the scrapyard and the cement companies too.

[Coreyburger]

The "problem" is that the federal government deems this a navigable waterway, so even if council could convince/bully all the users upstream on the bridge out (which I think is a very bad thing, for the record), you would still need to convince the federal government.

[LJ]

Well, if the feds could see the amount of money they would save from not having to rebuild the JSB, I think they might be persuaded.

[Sparky]

The feds will be selling swamp land on March 31 if they have any. A bunch of other stuff is going to be on the chopping block as well, including jobs.

[tedward]

Originally Posted by Bernard

Now, to piss some of you off, I think the estimates for the refurbishment are very likely even less accurate than the estimates for the new bridge. I have no faith that any large scale refurbishment of the bridge would have been cheaper than the new bridge. The only thing that might have been done would have been to some quick fixes that would lost for a decade or two.

Not going to piss me off but you are mistaken. Estimates for refurbishing tossed around included directly comparable costs for a recently completed refurbishment back east, Ontario I believe.

What is clear is that the city padded the estimates for refurbishment and severely underestimated the costs of new construction in order to push through the grand vision of an architectural masterpiece that will never be built.

[OakBay3000]

Originally Posted by martini

That sounds about spot on.

Hi All--this is my first post, so pardon if I make a mistake....

I thought the JSB project was a Build Canada funded project, which is funded 1/3 by the feds, 1/3 by the province, and 1/3 by local government. Is this not the case?

[Sparky]

Welcome to Vibrant Victoria OakBay3000. You did just fine. Someone should be able to bring you up to speed about the cost sharing.

Anyway you cut it, you can be certain that it will be paid 100% by you.

[UrbanRail]

Originally Posted by OakBay3000

Hi All--this is my first post, so pardon if I make a mistake....

I thought the JSB project was a Build Canada funded project, which is funded 1/3 by the feds, 1/3 by the province, and 1/3 by local government. Is this not the case?

You would think that would be the case. According to Ida Chong, the Province gave moral support.

[Mike K.]

City of Victoria tax payers voted to borrow $50-million for the project. The federal government has pledged $21-million, and most recently pledged another $16-million to the City of Victoria, but it's unclear whether all the money will go towards the bridge or be split among other civic projects.

The CRD has also pledged some money but I cannot confirm this off the top of my head nor the amount.

At this time the province has not pledged a single penny towards the largest civic infrastructure project undertaken by any one municipality on the south Island in recent history. It might even be the most expensive in history, as far as I am aware, but if anyone can confirm that would be appreciated.

[Hotel Mike]

I thought the JSB project was a Build Canada funded project, which is funded 1/3 by the feds, 1/3 by the province, and 1/3 by local government. Is this not the case?

Hey OB3000. You are correct that the $21 million is from the Build Canada Fund. You may be confusing it with the Infrastructure Stimulus Fund, which was a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3.

[Bernard]

Originally Posted by Mike K.

At this time the province has not pledged a single penny towards the largest civic infrastructure project undertaken by any one municipality on the south Island in recent history. It might even be the most expensive in history, as far as I am aware, but if anyone can confirm that would be appreciated.

I am almost 100% certain you are right on that. The other big ones are Memorial Arena, the unfinished Langford interchange, the Sooke sewer, of which they are all smaller than the bridge

[Ms. B. Havin]

Originally Posted by tedward

Not going to piss me off but you are mistaken. Estimates for refurbishing tossed around included directly comparable costs for a recently completed refurbishment back east, Ontario I believe.

What is clear is that the city padded the estimates for refurbishment and severely underestimated the costs of new construction in order to push through the grand vision of an architectural masterpiece that will never be built.

I think you're mistaken - the refurbishment would have been more expensive than estimated/ proposed by proponents, and I say this as someone 100% in favor of refurbishment. It would have been an expensive project. However, I think the - what's the right word? - ripple-effect (?) or payback of refurbishment would have been much higher than the new bridge (which, c'mon, let's not kid ourselves, will not be the resplendent beast promised by the politicos/ proponents, but rather will be a very boring-looking imo POS, and we can see that "Walmart"-quality already taking shape as the new bridge's features are being stripped or downgraded).

An old refurbished Johnson Street Bridge would have added in a very difficult-to-measure but nonetheless-substantial way to Victoria's identity - which would have had the added economic effect that true authenticity bestows (check any up-to-date tourism literature about authenticity of place: it's what travelers want). The new bridge promises a similar ineffable after-glow, but (to borrow a phrase from the great aastra), you can bet dollars-to-donuts that it just ain't gonna work the magic.

Years from now, people (including travelers / tourists) will be asking themselves, "what were they thinking?" We should have ponied up the (significant) money for refurbishment, but if there's one thing that's true about the political leadership (including those in the so-called heritage vanguard) and the city bureaucrats, it's that they are uncreative and have no imagination. Hence, this fiasco.

[Mike K.]

Thanks for that, Ms. B.

And not only will future tourists and locals be thinking "what were they thinking," they'll also be shaking their heads over the termination of rail into the downtown core.

[martini]

Originally Posted by Ms. B. Havin

Years from now, people (including travelers / tourists) will be asking themselves, "what were they thinking?" We should have ponied up the (significant) money for refurbishment, but if there's one thing that's true about the political leadership (including those in the so-called heritage vanguard) and the city bureaucrats, it's that they are uncreative and have no imagination. Hence, this fiasco.

Completely agree. Excellent post.

This is how I felt about Crystal Gardens as well. Tell me what unique qualities would bring people back?

[Ms. B. Havin]

Originally Posted by martini

This is how I felt about Crystal Gardens as well. Tell me what unique qualities would bring people back?

Ah, yes. The Crystal Gardens... Wow, where to start? What a cock-up. Regardless of what you thought of the exotic animals business, who in their right mind could have endorsed the idiocy of a virtual BC experience?

What would bring people back?

• must be public (or mostly public: i.e., no high-threshhold / high-expense venue) (the pool was built for public use, and that's what the building's character is)
• being a public/civic building, whatever goes on inside can't be too high-brow, ...but it can't be low-brow, either (because the building's lineage derives from the age of high-minded public projects - along the lines of Andrew Carnegie and his libraries, or public recreation facilities)
• you could, I suppose, riff off the water metaphor (the swimming pool) and argue for fluidity + transparency --> from there, you could argue for an innovation center based on internet and global connectivity
• spinning off from the previous point, you could create a modern-day "maker" space (again, emphasizing the transparency of The Crystal Gardens' glass enclosure - crystal), and have a space that's used by makers (whether digital or artisan crafts-based, or both) to make actual stuff, an idea that could be of civic interest if you think that being a maker vs. just a consumer/ user is still important...

Sorry, off topic, but since you asked, martini...! Just riffing off some ideas about how a building made for a specific purpose (for the public, for its edification, for health, for prosperity - all in a 19th century mode) can be used in the same spirit in the 21st century, without putting too much of an agenda on it...

It would be (should be) a space used by residents, but whatever residents do there could be interesting to visitors, too.

Wow, really off-topic now... Sorry! ;-)

[martini]

^Maybe swaying off topic, but things that needed to be said accordingly.

[tedward]

Originally Posted by Ms. B. Havin

...the refurbishment would have been more expensive than estimated/ proposed by proponents....

Kinda missed my point entirely.

I do not suggest that the refurbishment estimate was perfect I simply believe that it was much more accurate than the farcical estimate provided for the replacement option.

[Coreyburger]

CRD did pledge some of their Gas Tax Fund, but I am uncertain as to the amounts after the most recent Federal government announcement.

[Bingo]

The Johnson Street Bridge rail span was deemed unsafe and we were told that it would cost millions to refurbish it. But a report just released says that it would take just $5.4 million to upgrade ALL the structures between Courtenay and Victoria.

"An estimated $5.4 million is required to upgrade the structures between Courtenay and Victoria for the next 10 years of operation."

Read more: http://www.timescolonist.com/rail+re...#ixzz1sM4VB6nq

[UrbanRail]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The Johnson Street Bridge rail span was deemed unsafe and we were told that it would cost millions to refurbish it. But a report just released says that it would take just $5.4 million to upgrade ALL the structures between Courtenay and Victoria.

"An estimated $5.4 million is required to upgrade the structures between Courtenay and Victoria for the next 10 years of operation."

Read more: http://www.timescolonist.com/rail+re...#ixzz1sM4VB6nq

I am afraid that cost total doesnt include the JSB, as that is owned by the City, the report only included bridges owned by the ICF.

[Mike K.]

The Johnson Street Bridge rail span was deemed unsafe and we were told that it would cost millions to refurbish it.

Wasn't the issue that given the age of the lifting mechanism it may have ended up getting stuck in the down position, therefore it was permanently raised?

[Coreyburger]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The Johnson Street Bridge rail span was deemed unsafe and we were told that it would cost millions to refurbish it. But a report just released says that it would take just $5.4 million to upgrade ALL the structures between Courtenay and Victoria.

"An estimated $5.4 million is required to upgrade the structures between Courtenay and Victoria for the next 10 years of operation."

Read more: http://www.timescolonist.com/rail+re...#ixzz1sM4VB6nq

None of which are lifting structures. A few are the size of the JSB, but most are quite small. Look at how much the new Craighflower Bridge is costing. That is a more direct comparison because it isn't a lifting structure either.