[Johnson Street Bridge REPLACEMENT] General, technical and design discussion

[G-Man]

Originally Posted by Sparky

G-Man......the province is a mess this week....and as VHF would say...they don't have any skin in the game.

Oh ya...in a couple of days you will be able to read the federal budget for next year.

I'm thinking that we will find some of our stuff on ebay.

I was thinking that as the province they would have some ability to come in and run Victoria if the council was not doing their job, you know legally. Maybe there is nothing which is too bad but I seem to remember reading about some muni in the past that had a "government" imposed on them.

[Mike K.]

Anyone know what the cancellation fees the various involved companies may charge if the project is canceled?

I wouldn't be surprised if there were millions of dollars at stake should the project be nixed.

[dasmo]

I don't think anything should be nixed, we are past that point. They should just reconsider the present design altogether before it's too late. Happens all the time in product development. At this point it might even save money in the end.

This feels to me like the architects and council have painted themselves into a corner because they fell in love with a concept rendering the coop did that just wasn't founded on engineering and construction realities.....

We can have an excellent design that doesn't need to be engineered at such an extreme risk level nor manufactured to aerospace tolerances. They are already removing design elements "we voted for" anyway. Just take the bull by the horns and say let's look at alternative "inspired" by the present concept that are less risky therefore more predictable and thus less expensive.

[Bingo]

The Hoover Dam Bypass span is 4 lanes wide and 1,900 feet long and the project was was completed in 2007 for $240 million, with the bridge portion at $114 million

That's seems like more bang for the buck than what we are going to get for a $93 million Johnson Street Bridge.

http://www.vegas4locals.com/freehoov...assbridge.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_O'Callaghan_%E2%80%93_Pat_Tillman_Memorial_Br idge

[Mike K.]

Originally Posted by dasmo

I don't think anything should be nixed, we are past that point.

Although I don't know the specifics, I'd be inclined to think that we're at the perfect point to nix the project should City Hall recognize that costs could keep escalating (whether or not they'll admit to that is another matter). Once concrete is poured we'll be in a far worse position to start redesigning the bridge or changing the scope entirely -- in fact City Hall will likely tell tax payers that we're being held hostage by rising costs and a partial bridge already constructed and have no alternative than to keep ponying up.

Thank goodness Focus is covering the sage without skipping a beat. If the mainstream media were the only source for news on the bridge the public would be at a complete loss as to the specifics of the project.

[Ms. B. Havin]

Originally Posted by Mike K.

Thank goodness Focus is covering the sage without skipping a beat. If the mainstream media were the only source for news on the bridge the public would be at a complete loss as to the specifics of the project.

True, that. What blows my mind is that the other media outlets continue to ignore this mess, or, if they do report anything, they make it seem like it's all normal business-as-usual. Why is that? Is the T-C ignoring Focus's articles because their reporters didn't trail-blaze this story? Or because they get too much advertising money from City Hall? Or... what? By the same token, you'd think this fiasco would start getting some national coverage. It's not exactly a trivial cock-up, and it could serve as a lesson for municipalities across Canada (if not North America) for how NOT to do public infrastructure projects.

[History Buff]

http://observers.france24.com/conten...idge-art-voina

Instead of Painting it on the bridge should just be shaped like it (the deck)- Just before the bridge is raised the gates come down and a recorded voice says "Clear the Dick"
Imagine all the extra tourist money that would be brought into Victoria. If they built the span in the opposite direction it could help tourism in Vic West-Esquimalt.

[Ms. B. Havin]

Originally Posted by History Buff

http://observers.france24.com/conten...idge-art-voina

Instead of Painting it on the bridge should just be shaped like it (the deck)
Imagine all the extra tourist money that would be brought into Victoria. If they built the span in the opposite direction it could help tourism in Esquimalt.

Haha - except in Victoria's case, how about, instead of a penis, a giant middle finger (a big FU to city taxpayers)?

[Sparky]

Now now.....please make sure that you use all of your fingers when you are waving to the police or the government.

There.

[Bernard]

Originally Posted by G-Man

I was thinking that as the province they would have some ability to come in and run Victoria if the council was not doing their job, you know legally. Maybe there is nothing which is too bad but I seem to remember reading about some muni in the past that had a "government" imposed on them.

This would require the City of Victoria declaring bankruptcy. No municipality in BC has gone bankrupt since the early 1930s

[aastra]

By the same token, you'd think this fiasco would start getting some national coverage.

It's been light, but there's been a bit:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...idge-cost.html

The first comment under that article demonstrates the unfortunate attitude that too many people have whenever public projects (or wars) go bad. As circumstances worsen, popular enthusiasm can actually increase. The project becomes self-justifying.

If you were to do another referendum and double the numbers, I'd bet a donut there would be more support than there was the first time around.

[LJ]

Wait til the NDP get elected provincially, then this fiasco will look like childs play.

Hmmm, maybe that's what city council is counting on. "See, our screw-up isn't as bad as their screwup"

[Nparker]

Originally Posted by LJ

Wait 'til the NDP get elected provincially, then this fiasco will look like childs play.

After 11 years of Liberal deceit and subterfuge the NDP gaffaws will (almost) be a breath of fresh air. Plus, as was mentioned in an earlier post, if the NDP form the next provincial government there is just the slightest chance that Victoria may no longer be persona non grata when it comes to the provincial coffers. For that alone I am willing to give them a chance at the reigns for a while. Their time in power won't be long-lived I am sure, but it's about the only chance our region ever gets to see some of our provincial tax dollars at work locally.

I apologize for taking this thread off-track.

[Mark P]

From the TC:

http://www.timescolonist.com/span+Jo...279/story.html

"The coolest feature of the new Johnson Street Bridge - the ability to walk through and stand inside the lift wheels while the bridge was being raised - has been dropped as the project moves ahead amid rising costs."

[aastra]

That walkway never struck me as being particularly practical. Save some money and re-route the walkway beneath the bridge, right against the shore. It would actually be useful and there's no way anyone could toss a shopping cart into the works from there.

[Lover Fighter]

The rushed design of the bridge that was put forward before the borrowing referendum has been scaled back? Why am I not surprised...

[Layne French]

Originally Posted by Ms. B. Havin

True, that. What blows my mind is that the other media outlets continue to ignore this mess, or, if they do report anything, they make it seem like it's all normal business-as-usual. Why is that? Is the T-C ignoring Focus's articles because their reporters didn't trail-blaze this story? Or because they get too much advertising money from City Hall? Or... what? By the same token, you'd think this fiasco would start getting some national coverage. It's not exactly a trivial cock-up, and it could serve as a lesson for municipalities across Canada (if not North America) for how NOT to do public infrastructure projects.

Just passing through, thought you might like this irony

[Mike K.]

From the TC article quoting Councillor Geoff Young:

Coun. Geoff Young said the fact that "pretty substantial" design changes are still being made is worrisome. "It makes it difficult for me to be sure that we really have a good handle on the costs," he said.

He also wonders whether the walkway will ever be built. Not only is the walkway closed when the bridge goes up - possibly requiring a second walkway for people who want to access the northern part of the Harbour Pathway - the modification also raises safety concerns.

[b]"You also would need to have barriers to prevent people from walking on [the walkway] when the bridge goes up," Young said. "You would also have to have a mechanism of making sure no one was on it when the bridge started to go up. My forecast is, indeed, it will never be built."

[Holden West]

I predict the approaches on either side will be built as planned but the actual span will be quietly dropped, spun by City Hall as "an improvement in the navigational channel while preserving the potential transportation corridor for the future". After all, now that the Telus duct is fixed, why the need to physically move from one side to the other? Modern technology like Google Street View allows you to visit Vic West from the comfort of your living room! Moving forward!™

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Mark P

From the TC:

http://www.timescolonist.com/span+Jo...279/story.html

"The coolest feature of the new Johnson Street Bridge - the ability to walk through and stand inside the lift wheels while the bridge was being raised - has been dropped as the project moves ahead amid rising costs."

Yes and we have all that new money going towards design work, blah blah etc.

"City engineering staff say the feature had to be dropped to compensate for structural weekness in the original design" and "architects have determined additional bracing is necessary to achieve the stiffness the 200-tonne mechanical wheels need to carry the bridge load" from todays TC

I'm not an engineer, but this is what I said on VV back on August 1, 2010. Many of people on VV at the time gave similar predictions, and that information was FREE, and now we have this nightmare of indecision and escalating costs.

"In the full page spread of July 31st. Times-Colonist, the present bridge and new bridge cross sections are shown."

I said...

"If the two images are to scale, then it appears that the new bridge is twice the width of the present bridge. All of this weight and wind resistance when the new design is raised will be in one span, whereas the weight and windage of the present Johnson Street Bridge with half the width, is divided into two spans that can operate independently.

I hope the engineers have taken this into account."

for a view of the cross sections go to:

http://www.johnsonstreetbridge.com/w...b_book_web.pdf

On another idea for refurbishing the spans, that I posted Nov. 8, 2009 that has now come to pass with the demolition of the rail span.

...and I said

The most efficient way to refurbish the spans could be to remove them and do it off site, beginning with the lighter railway span. Just up the harbour is Point Hope Maritime, with a marine railway that can handle barges to 220' and a width of 60' and a capacity of 1200 tons.

The railway span could be lowered onto a barge, minus the counterweights, and the work done at the shipyard in a protected environment, working around the clock if need be. During this process the pilings, motors, electrical and other items at the bridge site could be worked on without touching the road bridge, which can remain open.

When the rail span is returned to the site, it could become a temporary road bridge with alternating one way traffic by leaving the rail line temporarily ending at the western side of the bridge.

Now the larger span can be worked on, and if it is possible to float it away as well, you would already have some data from having done the lighter span.

This method has worked in other locations, with much larger spans.

here: http://english.sina.com/p/1/2008/0407/153440.html

[aastra]

Peculiar article from a month ago that contains some odd stuff:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02...street-bridge/

This paragraph deserves some sort of award:

Part of the bridge’s high cost stems from the fact that it will be a “post-disaster” structure built to the highest seismic standards possible. When Victoria’s brick downtown lies in ruin after a major earthquake (the city has a 30% chance of being hit with a major earthquake by 2060), the bridge could act as a lifeline for ambulances, cranes and dump trucks.

How the hell does a passage like that end up in the final article?

• Who/what was the source/inspiration for it?
• Why is it worded so as to present a hypothetical scenario (the destruction of the downtown) as if it were a certainty?
• Why does the writer not pose the essential follow-up questions that are practically begging to be asked?
  • Do city leaders really expect the downtown core to be lying in ruin after a major earthquake, possibly at some point in the very near future?
  • If so, then how could an expensive new bridge project find itself at the top of the priority list?
  • The bridge could act as a lifeline for the ruined downtown? A hypothetical role to play after a hypothetical disaster? Under what circumstances would the bridge not be useful as a lifeline?
  • Are scenarios that depend on coincidental suppositions really so high in the minds of the city leaders? Why? What's the psychology behind that?
  • Why would the ruined downtown's hypothetical lifeline need to cross the harbour at that particular spot, or even cross the harbour at all?

Some funny bits:

...the new Johnson Street Bridge will have a wheeled base that rocks back on tracks. A passageway will allow tourists to walk through the bridge’s massive pivot wheel as it moved. “You can actually see it as an experiential piece of art,” Councillor Pam Madoff said when the design was unveiled.

“I’d be appalled if we had a cookie-cutter bridge straddling the harbour at that location,” said bridge proponent John Luton. “You’d have a hundred-year expression of mediocrity if you went and got a surplus sale or a CostCo bridge — whoever makes bridges at a dime a dozen,” he said.

[Rob Randall]

It's funny, if any bridge could be called cookie-cutter it would be the current Strauss bascule. But that's good because it was about as perfect as a bridge could be at that time. Once the problematic wooden roadway was replaced by steel mesh, it functioned with minimal maintenance in all types of weather, supporting everything from massive steam locomotives to hybrid buses.

Is there even such a thing as a modern cookie-cutter bridge? Every large lift bridge is unique, isn't it?

I was always skeptical of the pathway through the wheels. It sounds cool, but people generally don't like being pulled out of their way through a series of right angle turns.

[Bingo]

Now that the $15 million has been pledged towards the upgrade of the E&N railbed, how will this announcement impact the "NO RAIL" new Johnson Street Bridge?

In a previous post,
From the TC article quoting Councillor Geoff Young:

Quote:
Coun. Geoff Young said the fact that "pretty substantial" design changes are still being made is worrisome. "It makes it difficult for me to be sure that we really have a good handle on the costs," he said.

[Bingo]

Todays CFAX NEWS POLL

Should the rail portion of the Johnson Street Bridge be rebuilt?

http://www.cfax1070.com/

[Bingo]

Victoria Mayor Dean Fortin is defending his municipality's decision not to build a rail portion for the new Johnson Street Bridge.

“So we preserved the rail corridor and anytime that the federal, provincial government, the rail line, can come up with the funding to put that bridge across where the Johnson Street Bridge is, I mean, we’re there."

http://www.cfax1070.com/index.php?op...ews&Itemid=155

The rail corridor might be "preserved", but it it ends on the west side of the bridge. The existing rails do not line up with the center of the new design, so would the only way to use the E&N right of way be to bring it over a separate span built to the south of the new bridge location?

see new design here
http://www.johnsonstreetbridge.com/the-project/design/