Light Rapid Transit (aka Light Rail Transit)

[ressen]

What is the minimum requirement of ridership to make LRT feasible? On an other link G-man speculated that Sooke might warrant LRT if the population doubled to 22,000 people. The west shore has a population now, of nearly 50,000 people . If park and ride commuters from North of the malahat were included, the numbers might work sooner than later.

[Mike K.]

With, say, a catchment area of 60,000, LRT would be astronomically expensive to build and operate through to downtown Victoria from the west. With just a scraping of density between the urbanized core of the west shore and downtown Victoria, LRT would be a dud until density nodes were established.

There's a reason why the #50 bus, #61, and all other buses deadheading out west deadhead out west. They'll stop on some offramps along HWY1, but that's to throw a couple people off and pack a couple people on. For the rest of the ride folks remain standing until they get out at the Colwood exchange or the Canwest exchange.

And realistically speaking, will View Royal and the parts of Saanich currently along the proposed route change zoning from single family dwellings to high-density apartments? They'll have to in order to make stations viable, but when you have View Royal residents complaining about towers at Town and Country the chances of that happening are slim.

The only economic sense for LRT in the region is to run it from downtown through to Shelbourne/Hillside and then towards the UVic area. Anything other than that will result in an infrequent service servicing low-density auto-dependent communities. Although transit reliance will increase in the west shore, it's still a long ways out before its high enough to justify a full blown LRT. Also, LRT wouldn't even be necessary in a downtown/UVic route as streetcars could support similar capacity at a lower cost and without a dedicated right of way.

[m0nkyman]

Now is the time to start collecting the right-of-way for LRT towards the Western Communities, but nowhere near time to think about building it.

[Mike K.]

The right of way is already in place from downtown through to Langford -- or the majority of it is, anyways.

[Icebergalley]

This report by Todd Litman has a lot of the answers about the catchment area...


http://islandtransformations.org/files/ ... %20Dec.pdf

[ressen]

Derf is correct in saying that the proposed route as it stands now will likely never achieve high density nodes along it. A more direct route along Esquimalt Rd. and across Esquimalt harbour on the other hand already has the potential for density nodes. There is a critical mass of ridership that is needed to make LRT viable. With this in mind; starting in the east with Gordon head the line should run into Victoria then along Esquimalt Rd. across the harbour, along Goldstream Ave. and then out past the new West hills development , finally terminating at Goldstream Park where passengers transfer to the North bound commuter train. Using this route; might comprise the required amount of passengers.

[ressen]

In conjunction with the LRT; street car systems should connect up to stations to add to the ridership. One such street car could run in front of Royal Roads along Esquimalt Lagoon to the base of Lagoon Estates and then along the water to Royal bay development terminating at a park and ride for people coming out of Metchosin.

[renthefinn]

Build it and they will come. Look at the M-line in Vancouver, it was constructed in an area that was mostly industrial with a few nodes of higher density. Now there's tonnes of construction around most stations, and it's pretty much at the ridership projections, can't recall if it's slightly over or under, and that's without the extra leg that was initially planned for the North East Sector and the western extension.

[obscurantist]

Vancouver provides a great example of how not to build a commuter rail network.

If Victoria followed Vancouver’s example, it would start with a line through the most highly-populated and well-established urban areas – say, downtown to Oak Bay – but using an incredibly expensive and untested form of technology as a political favour to another provincial government, as opposed to using streetcars or more conventional off-street light rail.

The second phase would initially be billed as an expansion out toward Gordon Head, but instead it would be built out to Langford.

The province would then devolve power to a regional transit authority, while making the authority effectively toothless in terms of raising revenues outside of the traditional sources of fuel taxes, property taxes, and fares, as well as making it effectively toothless in terms of transportation planning, as the province would force the authority to build a new line twinning the old one by going at a diagonal angle to it through the same core cities – and still not going anywhere close to the university.

Next, a major sporting event would serve as the impetus for federal and provincial funding for a line up to Sidney, with a spur line to the airport (but not to the ferry terminal). The Transportation Minister would order a review of the transportation authority’s governance structure, not on the basis of the decisions it had made, but because it had approved the Sidney-Airport line so narrowly. Proposed expansions up the Malahat, further into the Western Communities, and to UVic would remain on the back burner indefinitely, as there wouldn’t be any money for them.

So, what are Victorians waiting for? Don’t you want to be a world-class city like Vancouver? :smt003

[ressen]

There should be a line built to Sidney and Swartz Bay, then by bridge island hop from Saltspring island over to Galiano Island where the Fast Cat ferries should have been used as RO/RO (roll on / roll off) ships taking the LRT over to the mainland and Vancouver. As for Sidney the street car would connect that town and the LRT with the airport.

[G-Man]

I have posted this before but this is my own personal concept for routing an LRT or street car in Victoria.

The red line is my proposal with the blue line being the alternate or second line.

[ressen]

I like it but carry the red line trough to Sooke Lk rd. and the blue line from Cadboro bay, UVIC, along Mekenzie and Admirals to Esquimalt rd. to complete the Crosstown route.

[G-Man]

I am not saying it couldn't be extended. The red line in an amalgam of some of the key destinations on the #6, 14, 4, 26 Bus routes.

The #14, 6, 26, and the 30 are the highest ridership routes. The number 4 is the fifth highest.

The blue line would accomodate much of the usuage of # 30 but would not be needed right away.

[Scaper]

High density nodes are a good idea to achieve ridership. Though I believe that you could acheive a good ridership on an lrt line now in the westshores by providing good park and ride locations. The bus routes take a ridiculous amount of time to ride from downtown to Langford. If an Lrt line could provide quick reliable transportation with a good park and ride service many people would opt out of the colwood crawl to use an lrt service. We also have to build for the future too. The west shores will surpass the 100,000 population in the near future with developments like Bear Mountian, West Hills, Royal Bay, each development with populations in the 15,000-20,000 range, added to lagoon estates, and high density developments in the Colwood Corners area, they should start looking at building an lrt line now. Better at todays prices than in ten to 15 years when we will be looking at upgraded highways etc. As it stands Millstream overpass is at capacity, the Langford Parkway is under construction crossing with the new Vetran's Memorial Parkway. McKenzie and the Trans Canada is in a dire need of an interchange, and this is all feeding a population base that will double in the near future. To me there is no question what needs to be done. It's just I don't think the Provincial Government has any ambition to invest in Victoria. Though you never know when election time comes what the government may propose to intice the south island voters.

[G-Man]

It would be cool if someone else wanted to come up with their own ideal routings for LRT in the Capital. Any takers?

[G-Man]

I think that the WestShore should just get a modified E&N no need to build anything new out there. If it is well used then it will be improved.

[Scaper]

Maybe but the train would actually have to come into the city in the morning and not leave the city in the morning!!! hahaha....

Only in Victoria could a commuter train leave downtown at rush hour and head in to town at even rush hour!!! All the while the brainiacs seem so perplexed why ridership is so low! and while they scratch their heads trying to find ways to improve ridership!!! It's like a sick comedy show of some sort!!!

[ressen]

If it is not fast and convenient people will not use it.

[G-Man]

It could easily be fast. As was noted recently it currently takes 26 minutes from Langford to Victoria. I am sure some basic work would get that down to around the 22 minute mark. That is much better than the length of some commutes currently so I am sure it would be used.

You could eventually have an LRT from Langford to Sooke especially after Royal Bay is built as you have it stop there first before going West.

[Scaper]

It's not convenient when it leaves downtown in the morning that's for sure.

Though it could be a quick fix while they plan a new lrt option. They would have to completely change the way the E&N currently works. New stations one or two more cars. Easy to access park and rides with minimal stops. They would have to make it so that a trip would be quicker than taking a car or taking the bus. I believe they could make it reliable and quick. It would be an exciting venture for this region.

[m0nkyman]

Originally Posted by G-Man

It would be cool if someone else wanted to come up with their own ideal routings for LRT in the Capital. Any takers?

Sure, why not:
Here's why I start assembling the ROW's now. To be useful it actually has to go somewhere that the E&N doesn't..... where the people are.
[img]http://aptenobytes.typepad.com/Images/LRT.gif[/img]
Red line is a classic commuter, both directions. Initially I picture it going just to where the two lines meet in the western communities, but it will eventually go out to Sooke, maybe 2057, maybe later. Plan now for it, and our grandkids will thank us for it. Between the initial build and the building the Sooke run, take it out to the ferry and the airport (forgot to draw in that loop.

The Blue line, I picture as a combo commuter and crosstown run. Build the crosstown first from the western communities station to the University Station, then build it out to a park and ride on the other side of the malahat for the folks up north that commute in. Again, our kids will thank us for it

[ressen]

Perfect. Those are pretty close to the lines that I would have drawn. (only i haven't quite figured out how to do that)

[G-Man]

MS Paint!

That looks pretty good there monkeyman!

I like how you used the Esquimalt harbour route!

[m0nkyman]

Originally Posted by G-Man

MS Paint!

Bite your tongue. GraphicConverter. No MS crap on my beautiful new Macbook Pro.

8)

[aastra]

How about this? My only regret is that I left Hillside Mall out of the mix.