[Johnson Street Bridge] - General discussion

[amor de cosmos]

I couldn't agree more with John Luton. The E&N overpass/underpass, for example, seems extremely awkward. If the Johnson St bridge gets replaced I don't see why that shouldn't get straightened out also. Straighten out that whole area, the tracks, Galloping Goose, Johnson St, Harbour Rd, the intersections at Pandora/Johnson/Store, the entrance to Ocean Pt... The city might also be able to make some money through value capture, similar to the redesign of the Granville St loops, from which Vancouver could make $100 million through land sales.

I also wonder what goes through Pam Madoff's head when she decides when something does/doesn't consider a structure to have historical value. As the article says, it's one of only a few bascule bridges left in the country, designed by Joseph Strauss, who also designed the Golden Gate Bridge, and has become kind of a symbol of Victoria. Some people don't even call it the Johnson St bridge anymore, they call it the blue bridge. I'm sure more than a few people would be sad to see it go. But it has no heritage value?

Blue Bridge needs to be fixed or replaced
Victoria council takes a hard look today at landmark link
By Bill Cleverley, Times Colonist
April 2, 2009

The multi-million dollar question of whether to replace or repair the landmark Johnson Street Bridge will be before Victoria councillors today. And Mayor Dean Fortin says there's no time to delay.

"It's fundamentally our number-one infrastructure priority. There's just no doubt about it," Fortin said.

"It's fundamental to public safety and it's fundamental to our transportation system. It certainly has the potential for an impact on every community from Vic West to Esquimalt to Saanich and Colwood -- everywhere."

It's also going to be expensive.

Preliminary evaluations of the 85-year-old blue bridge pegged repairs at $15 million and replacement at $30 million. But Fortin said expects new estimates to be considerably higher. "Fifteen million? Where does that come from? I'd do it tomorrow for $15 million," he said.

The last major capital project the city undertook anywhere near this size was the four-year-old Save-On-Foods Memorial Centre, built through a private-public partnership, which rang in at $28.1-million.

Timing of the bridge decision is critical, said Fortin, who hopes to tap federal and provincial infrastructure funds.

Designed by Joseph Strauss, the man who designed the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, the bridge is nearing the end of its life.

It was built for $1 million, opened in 1924, and is one of only a handful of bascule bridges -- a type of movable bridge -- left in Canada. But it has a number of problems, including seismic concerns.

A 2005 underwater survey found the concrete piers are eroding, but no underwater repairs have been done in 30 years. In 1999, the concrete decking on the approaches and corroded sections of the steel structure were replaced.

Coun. John Luton said replacing the bridge could provide the opportunity to untangle the road approaches, sidewalks, trails, bikeways and railtracks that meet at the bridge.

"The discussion, I think, will turn on what opportunities does rebuilding offer us in the way of unscrambling the octopus on either side of the bridge, because you've got some very awkward geometry. You've got under-utilized land on the downtown side, mostly, by the Janion Building and around Northern Junk," Luton said.

"You've got parking lots on the waterfront. ... It's such a poor use of waterfront land."

Coun. Pam Madoff is uncertain whether there is a compelling heritage reason for preserving the bridge.

"I think certainly the Johnson Street Bridge is seen as an icon -- absolutely. What we would have to look at are what the engineering challenges are, what the costs are and the lifecycle issues as well --all of those things," said Madoff, adding one of the biggest issues is how to keep traffic moving during any rebuilding or repair.

In anticipation of changes to the blue bridge, Luton thinks the city should look at improving the Point Ellice (Bay Street) Bridge.

Luton has advocated retrofitting the bridge with bike lanes and better sidewalks and a left-turn lane for traffic from Bay Street to Tyee Road.

"While we're madly scribbling out the designs for whatever we do at the Johnson Street bridge, it makes sense to do the work on the Bay Street bridge so it becomes readier to absorb the shift in trips from the Johnson Street Bridge over to the Bay Street Bridge."

http://www.timescolonist.com/Blue+Br...881/story.html


just look at the mess on either side of the bridge

[Holden West]

I'm somewhat sentimental about the old bridge so I would hope that any replacement was equally eyecatching so it would become an icon of the future. But the final result of the SOFMC makes me pessimistic to think we could count on that.

[yodsaker]

Repair and restore it, its too good to lose. Its a real symbol of the city to residents and it has heritage merit IMO. Let's hope people can see the value beyond dollars and cents.

[spanky123]

Ok I understanding that some of the concrete pillings need work, but other than trying to get Government dough what is the motivation for having to replace/repair the bridge right now?

[victorian fan]

"The bridge is like a magnet, attracting both pedestrians and over 30,000 vehicles daily who enjoy the views of Victoria's harbour. The skyline may change, but "Big Blue" as some call it, will always be there."

It was late November, when the storm blew in. In the darkness of night, white caps foamed on the harbour. The rain pelted in sideways against the windows on my little shack. The bridge, lit by the glow from the street lamps, took on a ghostly appearance. That is when I got the call from a sailboat, requesting passage to the upper harbour. The two bridges, raised to the upright position, looked like two giant arms reaching for heaven. The wind was blowing through the girders making an odd sound when I thought I heard the words 'Come in, come in and let me give you shelter from the storm.

- A quote from the Senior Bridge Operator

[G-Man]

Getting rid of this bridge is a huge mistake.

The heritage scandal aspect of this proposal is being discussed here:

http://www.vibrantvictoria.ca/forum/...ead.php?t=2929

[Mike K.]

Getting rid of the curve under the rail bridge would be welcome.

[amor de cosmos]

Originally Posted by Mike K.

Getting rid of the curve under the rail bridge would be welcome.

so the downside would be that we'd have no more blue bridge (not the same one anyway) if it got replaced. but what about the benefits? while it's getting rebuilt, the roads from market square to tyee could definitely be straightened out & streamlined, making vic west "closer" to the downtown area. the city could offset their costs with land sales & value capture, and maybe make a profit at the end of it all.

[G-Man]

The benefits just won't add up to the cost to the city. There is a lot that could be done to improve the traffic layout while keeping the bridge.

[jklymak]

The problem w/ the bridge that impacts traffic, so far as I can see, is that the E&N comes across it. If it stopped west of the bridge the underpass etc could all be removed. I kind of like the east side, except a pedestrian walkway under the bridge would be nice if it was part of an improved harbour-length walkway.

I wonder about the earthquake worry. Worst-case scenario one or two cars gets caught, and I would expect the odds of that to be pretty small. Its not a very long bridge. Of course the pilings should be shored up, but that doesn't require rebuilding the whole thing. So what is the big possible expense?

[Mike K.]

The problem is not a few cars falling into the water during an earthquake, it's losing the bridge!

[VicHockeyFan]

Wait a minute. It cost $30m to build our arena, and it costs $30m to replace the bridge? I don't like it.

If we don't replace it with the same type of bridge, we need to get rid of the train portion of the thing anyway.

It's a nice looking bridge, but if it has to be replaced, let's do it completely different, and the money we save with a more conventional crossing can be spent elsewhere, like on the cruise-ship terminal or Belleville terminal.

Let's open a casino downtown where there should be one, and use profits to build a bridge and the terminal fixes.

How about we make it a toll-bridge, but Victoria residents don't have to pay the toll, just all the others.

[VicHockeyFan]

CFAX today:

Polls

What do you want to see done with Victoria's aging Johnson Street Bridge?
Answer Votes %
Replace it. 280 61%
Repair it. 177 39%
Total: 457 100%

[Caramia]

I love the blue bridge and I hope they keep it instead of replacing it with something new.

[Rex250]

i feel that we cant just keep repairing it, its going to be replaced anyway someday. so why not just replace it now with, as said above, something as equally iconic and eye-catching?

[amor de cosmos]

Victoria will wait to decide on future of worn Blue Bridge
April 2, 2009 3:01 PM

Refurbishing the deteriorating Johnson Street Bridge will cost between $25-million and $30-million and last another 40 years while replacing it would cost $35-million to $40-million for something good for 100 years, Victoria councillors were told today.

Mayor Dean Fortin likened the choice to deciding whether to pump yet more cash into a beater car to keep it running or buying a new one.

Only in this case the decision has to be made quickly if the city is to have any hope of tapping into federal/provincial stimulus dollars that could cover two thirds of the cost.

Councillors made no decision Thursday but will consider it again in two weeks when staff provide more details on issues such as: available options, potential funding sources, communications plans and timelines.

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Vi...420/story.html

[Ms. B. Havin]

Wow, Dean Fortin compares this structure to "a beater car"? Is this a joke?

[UrbanRail]

If a replacement is decided on, then it has to have a multi-modal approach to it. It should include cycling lanes, proper sidewalks for pedestrians, proper road lanes ( I am not sure how one is going to straighten it out), and must include rail (allowing a future streetcar loop and future extension of commuter rail to Douglas St).

The Victoria side will pose a bigger challenge, even more so than the Vic West side.

I personally like the Blue Bridge. It has a lot of history, but if it is decided to replace it, then lets do it right.

[aastra]

Indeed. And an essential aspect of doing it right would be to shell out the cash necessary to get an outstanding design, because this bridge is -- and will always be -- one of the city's defining landmarks. It's one of those things that people think of when they think of Victoria. It's unusual.

The do-it-as-cheaply-as-possible approach will fail miserably in this instance.

[aastra]

I wouldn't mind seeing the sort of bridge that Rattenbury might have designed. Something unnecessarily ornate. The sort of bridge that people would want to linger on because it has atmosphere.

Take the opportunity to link it up with the northern extension of the causeway (it doesn't exist but it really should exist).

But that would probably cost money and Victoria's a dump anyway so let's see what Kamloops is doing and then spend half as much.

[aastra]

If they were to re-route the road on the west side, methinks the real estate they'd gain on the site of the old curve would be worth a lot of money.

[jklymak]

Originally Posted by Mike K.

The problem is not a few cars falling into the water during an earthquake, it's losing the bridge!

Well, so we lose the bridge and have to build a new one which is whats being discussed anyway... All I'm suggesting is that seismic retrofitting seems to be a red herring.

I like the bridge too, and would be very sad if it was replaced by something like the Bay St. bridge. However, I do wonder if the existing structure is all that special (as opposed to the overall design). I compare it to the Ship Canal bridges in Seattle, and they have all the neo-gothic watchtowers made of stone, etc. The Johnson St Bridge just has a utilitarian metal shack. Maybe something with the same esthetic and basic design, but even better, could be built.

[amor de cosmos]

A-Channel:

Future Of Johnson Street Bridge To Be Decided

VICTORIA - The Future of Victoria's landmark Johnson Street bridge has become an urgent priority for city council.

Mayor Dean Fortin says deciding whether to rehabilitate or replace the 85-year-old structure is Victoria's number one infrastructure priority.

One plan may include deconstructing the existing rail portion of the structure and building a new road bridge in its place.

The existing road portion would then be decommissioned to make way for the new rail section.

Project Manager Mike Lai says regardless of the final decision, we can expect some traffic delays and road closures.

Replacing the bridge could cost up to 40 million dollars while the city says rehabilitating the existing structure may cost as much as 30 million dollars.

Victoria Mayor Dean Fortin says the city wants needs to act with a sense of urgency in order to be eligible for funding from the provincial and federal governments, as much as 25 million dollars.

Council is still looking at how best to engage the public on the issue. A final decision is expected April 23rd.

http://www.atv.ca/victoria/news_67886.aspx

[G-Man]

If we allow them to tear it down, for 30 to 40 million we will get a concrete overpass bridge. Sorry but that is a drop in the bucket. Don't forget this either has to be a super high bridge or a drawbridge that they are building. Bridges are not cheap. If we allow this to happen it will be one of those things that we look back on and saw how did we let that happen?

How much was the Spencer overpass?

[ressen]

keep the bridge for rail , pedestrians and cycles. Then put in a tunnel for vehicles.