Living above the store: mixed-use residential

[Holden West]

Globe feature on the pros and cons of putting residential above commercial in Vancouver and other cities.

Property Report

Living above the store

All-in-one projects with retail, residential and office components are attracting attention. But not everyone is onboard



FRANCES BULA
VANCOUVER — Special to The Globe and Mail Published on Tuesday, Nov. 10, 2009 12:00AM EST Last updated on Tuesday, Nov. 10, 2009 12:23PM EST

In Vancouver, the Shaw Tower has divided a tower on the waterfront edge of the central business district with Triple A office space on the bottom and high-end condos on top. The city's Woodward's project near the Downtown Eastside combines condos, social housing, space for non-profits and city offices, a grocery store, a drugstore and Simon Fraser University's School for the Contemporary Arts, with its multitude of performance spaces.

But even enthusiasts such as Mr. Klein say that challenges come with building mixed-use projects. Often developers dive into them when they know how to do only one part well - the offices, the condos or the retail - but they add on the others, thinking they'll be easy gravy. It turns out they aren't.
Some uses just don't work together, with restaurants being especially problematic because of their smells, waste and noise issues.
Or developers don't think about timing problems and they end up with different groups of users clashing as one tries to leave while the other is arriving.
What does work best is when developers create multiple uses that appeal to a similar demographic.

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[masiyou]

There was a lot of this type of residence in Chinese towns that I visited. When I returned to Victoria, I thought about how nice it would be to have more of that here to create more density and "vibrancy".
However, there are a couple of differences between those chinese towns and the kind of developments described in the article. (I'm thinking of one particular town whose population is similar in size to Victoria's)
Usually, in China, families live above their own businesses so there's no conflict between residential and commercial in one building.
The commercial part of the building contains a business which exists according to percieved market needs, as opposed to the utopian mix of business and non-profit described in the article.
Lastly, Chinese people have a much higher tolerance for noise than we do here. This may be in part because even in small rural towns, they have always lived in very densely built areas.

[Bernard]

It can be good, but I remember my brother living above a restaurant in a new apartment building on W10th close to UBC. Most nights you could smell the grease.

[Caramia]

The commercial part of the building contains a business which exists according to percieved market needs, as opposed to the utopian mix of business and non-profit described in the article.

My impression of China was that in some ways it was way closer to free market capitalism than anything I've seen here. Ironic, given it is ruled by the CPP.

Lower Johnson Street is a good local example of people living above the shops. Several of the residents above are commercial tenants below or close by. Both commercial and residential units are usually 100% occupied.

[VicHockeyFan]

Or developers don't think about timing problems and they end up with different groups of users clashing as one tries to leave while the other is arriving.

I'm not sure what that line is talking about. Apart from not building a nightclub, what clashes are they talking about?

[Caramia]

Plan B has residential right beside it. Finding the right tenants who don't mind the nightclub noise is an art form. When I was managing that building I appreciated the chance to give some apartments to people who didn't fit the "cream of the crop" of renters. Young people starting out, night owls, and some of the more eccentric characters in the Victoria streetscape were prime candidates for that buildings, and the number of complaints we got from that building was very low. Without the nightclub, I would have been forced to choose yuppies for those suites too, knowing full well that while some of the people I turned away would find homes, many would not.

[Holden West]

Originally Posted by VicHockeyFan

I'm not sure what that line is talking about. Apart from not building a nightclub, what clashes are they talking about?

I'm guessing with a building like Wall Centre when the five o'clock bell rings you've got office workers exiting the parkade while residents are arriving home. However, I can't imagine it being any more chaotic than the relatively smooth flow outside any city parkade at rush hour. I can't help recall the traffic chaos predicted by Humboldt Valley residents when they learned of the Chelsea condo's parking capacity.

[G-Man]

Really this is just about "Buyer Beware" if don't like mustard don't buy pastrami sandwiches.

Some people are cut out for urban living and some are not. Unfortunately many people think it is cool and won't acknowledge their inner suburbanite. To those I say you are SOL.

[Baro]

I find it odd how the article seems describes this "trend" of residential and business being in the same district let alone same building as some new fad rather than the bloody norm for urban life for the last 3000 years or so, only recently interupted by the ridiculous fad of post-war extreme segregated use zoning. This is how humans live and always have.

[G-Man]

^ Good point.

[Caramia]

^^True

[aastra]

^^^Indeed.

[aastra]

You can delude yourselves into thinking that having to take an elevator and an extended walk to some park or playground as a way to live your life, but I will be much happier being able to step outside my back door and be amongst my piece of nature.

Do some people fear that the suburban format will eventually be outlawed or something? If you don't like living in town then you'll always be free to live in the 'burbs. Different strokes for different folks.

[victorian fan]

I lived over a bakery in James Bay. Fresh baked bread smell every morning (except Sunday).

[phx]

Originally Posted by Baro

I find it odd how the article seems describes this "trend" of residential and business being in the same district let alone same building as some new fad rather than the bloody norm for urban life for the last 3000 years or so, only recently interupted by the ridiculous fad of post-war extreme segregated use zoning. This is how humans live and always have.

Well, the fad started during the industrial revolution.

But don't let that stop you from pining for the pre-industrial days.

[Baro]

I was obviously speaking of the post-Crimean war period.

[G-Man]

Originally Posted by phx

Well, the fad started during the industrial revolution.

But don't let that stop you from pining for the pre-industrial days.

Not in Victoria. Old town is a completely post-industrial revolution creation and yet it is all mixed use. As Baro said the idea of creating vast segregated zones came into being on a large scale mostly in the 30 and 40 with it being most pronounced from the 1950s to the 1990s.

[aastra]

Well, the fad started during the industrial revolution.

But don't let that stop you from pining for the pre-industrial days.

Started again, I think you mean.

Insulae were constructed of brick covered with concrete and were often five or more stories high despite laws limiting them to 68 feet (21 metres), under Augustus, and then 58 ft, under Trajan. The street level characteristically housed artisans’ workshops and commercial establishments.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/289442/insula

"Residential and commercial architecture were intermixed in ancient Rome."

This occurred in most street-front buildings, which commonly had shops on either side of an entrance hall leading into a residence behind the shops. Some one-room shops had back rooms as dwellings for the shopkeeper and his family...we can even see the close juxtaposition of a workshop with the houses of the rich. This is another contrast to the modern American urban form created by urban zoning laws which keep separate architectural classes geographically distinct. The same contrast is illustrated by the close juxtaposition of different levels of commercial operations -- the workshop and the tabernae -- where we typically separate such levels as light industrial and retail.

http://www.penn.museum/documents/pub...2/Reynolds.pdf

[Holden West]

And of course the prime corner of your mixed-use project should have a fast food restaurant. Everyone likes soup:



Although if the tenants upstairs dislike the smell of fermenting anchovies they're S.O.L.

source

[aastra]

Although if the tenants upstairs dislike the smell of fermenting anchovies they're S.O.L.

Bah. They can go find peace and quiet on a mountaintop outside of town if urban life annoys them so much.

[Caramia]

The commute on donkey back is killer though.

[LJ]

Does anybody remember the series "Rome" IIRC. Everybody there lived above shops of some sort but the main character always hankered after a life in the country.

Some people like to live amid the hubub of a downtown core, others don't - doesn't make one right or wrong, it just makes them different.

[Holden West]

SUUM CUIQUE...x

xxx

[G-Man]

Originally Posted by LJ

Does anybody remember the series "Rome" IIRC. Everybody there lived above shops of some sort but the main character always hankered after a life in the country.

Some people like to live amid the hubub of a downtown core, others don't - doesn't make one right or wrong, it just makes them different.

Exactly. Which is why if you don't like it you should not try and conform it to your tranquille idyll eden

[Holden West]

Feature article in the Globe about big box stores moving into downtown Toronto:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1913912/

“The numbers are extremely compelling,” said Ed Sonshine, chief executive officer of shopping-mall developer RioCan. “It costs a lot more to be in the city, but places like Winners have proven that it’s well worth it.”

The major hindrance to big-box expansion in Toronto has not been attracting customers, but actually finding space big enough to accommodate even miniature versions of stores known primarily for their scale.

“They’re used to building a one-storey store that’s 100,000 feet with another seven acres of parking,” said Mr. Sonshine. “That just is impossible in the city. Even if you could find it, you could never afford it.”

...many brands are focusing instead on the opportunities of new build condominiums.

At Queen Street West and Portland, Mr. Sonshine’s RioCan is building a development that will house a 45,000-sq.-ft. Loblaws, an 8,000-sq.-ft. Joe Fresh and a 29,000-sq.-ft. Winners outlet in the base of a condo tower.

Off topic, but Winners is the most ironically named store in retail.