Greater Victoria teachers job action and union solidarity strikes (2012)

[PulpVictor]

The rest of us cannot afford your 'fair deal'. I'd love to get your deal. Please view this short video, and try to understand WHY WE CANNOT AFFORD YOU!

http://youtu.be/MwqQxA3-_fg

[mc9]

I appreciated this comment for the above posted youtube video

"You confuse two issues. Yes, you probably deserve better pay, and we all deserve better pensions and benefits. Corporations don't give a rat's ass for their workers. But why take away the better pay and benefits from one group instead of raising the benefits and pay of the others? We need to lift all boats, not sink the few that are still floating."

[Fairbanks]

If you want smaller class sizes then that means more teachers. You cant have your cake and eat it too. So which is it, more teachers or more money...decide. in the last 50 years only one contract has been settled without dispute. One settled contract in 5 decades. Clearly the BCTF is not capable of negotiating in good faith.

[bluefox]

Originally Posted by PulpVictor

There may be a few die-hard pro-unionists who will join you. Those of us that work can't afford you.

I find the part in bold particularly insulting and inflammatory, and I'm not even a teacher. In fact, I do work in the private sector. I don't know why you think talking like that helps get teachers back to work with a fair, equitable deal.

You definitely don't speak for me.

[martini]

Originally Posted by bluefox

I find the part in bold particularly insulting and inflammatory, and I'm not even a teacher. In fact, I do work in the private sector. I don't know why you think talking like that helps get teachers back to work with a fair, equitable deal.

You definitely don't speak for me.

I second that.

[PulpVictor]

Originally Posted by mc9

I appreciated this comment for the above posted youtube video

"You confuse two issues. Yes, you probably deserve better pay, and we all deserve better pensions and benefits. Corporations don't give a rat's ass for their workers. But why take away the better pay and benefits from one group instead of raising the benefits and pay of the others? We need to lift all boats, not sink the few that are still floating."

That thinking is precisely the problem. Socialists view the world as it was when union organizing had meaning and was necessary. The world has changed. The economic drivers are now small businesses, who are getting killed in this economy. We work 18 hours a day. It is our sweat that is keeping all of the public service employees in jobs, but it cannot last. Look hard at what is going on in Europe right now.

Unions need to get a reality check. It is no longer "The Man" that drives our economy, and you need to step back from the archaic rhetoric.

p.s. I organized unions in the 70s, when there was still a need for them.

[mc9]

Does the States, with their capitilistic style, have it right then? What country in the world is the closest to have it 'right' right now?

I also don't think anyone should be working 18 hour days. Why work away your life? With everything we have available to us now I feel like we should be working less rather than more. I heard somewhere that compared to our ancestors that we work more hours, even though they were working for survival. There seems to be more and more discontent everywhere between workers and employers, services available etc. maybe the Occupy 1% idea had some truth and pull behind it. But maybe this is just the way it always is and this discontent and rapid increase of cost happens in cycles, or maybe its just because it is not more pertinent to me so I have noticed it?

[spanky123]

I think that what PulpVictor is saying that as a small business owner, he is working longer and longer hours to try and make ends meet in a weak economy while the perception is that some unions and union members have their hands out asking for more and more.

There is clearly a divergence there which is not sustainable. Many in small business have been very lucky to see 0% wage increases over the past 4 years and many business owners have seen large drops in what they put in their pockets at the end of the day. I get the union position that you ask for everything and settle for something, but the view on main street is different.

[AllseeingEye]

Originally Posted by spanky123

I think that what PulpVictor is saying that as a small business owner, he is working longer and longer hours to try and make ends meet in a weak economy while the perception is that some unions and union members have their hands out asking for more and more.

There is clearly a divergence there which is not sustainable. Many in small business have been very lucky to see 0% wage increases over the past 4 years and many business owners have seen large drops in what they put in their pockets at the end of the day. I get the union position that you ask for everything and settle for something, but the view on main street is different.

This whole question of work vs personal time/lifestyle in quite interesting.

I know several teachers including two who are very close friends and we certainly do pile up against this rock time and again: one who teaches in a west side HS in Vancouver is incredulous whenever I mention matter of factly that my mobile is on 7 x 24, and that sometimes I am attending to work-related activities at 10pm on a Tuesday night or in the middle of the afternoon on a Sunday, for example. Let me add that I am a senior manager in the technology world - for some jobs there are certain obligations and responsibilites that come with the territory which I understand and have no issue with. In my world and to my way of thinking that is all part and parcel of being "management" particularly: accept it, deal with it, or get out move to Coombs and sell alfalfa. No one is holding a gun to my head. I chose the career. IMO the same should apply with equal force to teachers at least at a high level - the job is what it is, and whether its my career or theirs, surely the individual has done some homework going in and has a good understanding of what it entails? I am therefore, not surpringly, not terribly sympathetic to him when he moans about having to mark exams occasionally at night or on weekends. My reaction is, typically, "and your point is...what?" Just because some unions might like to think its still 1961 or 1974, the reality is the world doesn't necessarily end at 3:30 on a Friday afternoon. In fact for most of us those days are long gone.

What astounds me too is when my Vancouver friend in particular says "But...its Friday at 8pm, why are you working?" He cannot seem to wrap is head around that. Simple answer: because in an increasngly 7 x 24 x 365, technology-driven world, the old Monday-Friday 8-4 "work model" is becoming blurred and in fact for the majority of my colleagues and customers, has absolutely no relevancy to anything. If something is broken they need it fixed. Now. Regardless whether it is in the middle of the day or night and on a weekend. And not whenever I feel like dealing with it after strolling into the office at 9am on Monday. I suspect it is this reality that makes it difficult for most private sector, non BCTF members to feel a huge amount of sympathy for certain "grievences". The contracts issue quite aside - another conversation and one with which I do by and large agree that teachers got the short end of the stick: a contract should be a contract after all - the reality and bottom line is no one forced them into their career track. Presumably they went into it with eyes wide open. And heaven knows - the contracts issue completely aside - is there another profession anywhere that gets the time off that teachers do? I "negotiated" my current situation so that I get a grand total of 5 weeks vacation/year. And I am very well aware compared to most Canadians I am sitting pretty; that most Canadians are likely in the 3-4 week vacation bucket, and some less than that. Given the astounding time off between Professional Days, civic holidays, Christmas, Spring Break, Easter, and Summer, forgive me if I am not, overall, terribly sympathetic to the teachers' 'plight'.....

[gumgum]

How much can BC teachers make?

[Holden West]

^^I recall a recent ad in which the District of Saanich was looking for a tech guy available at all hours. The wage they were paying was well into the six figures.

I know a newly-minted teacher who's pretty much given up hope of finding full-time work in Victoria in the foreseeable future and is working in the retail trade.

[AllseeingEye]

Originally Posted by gumgum

How much can BC teachers make?

Not sure if that information appeared earlier in this thread or somewhere else but I believe after `x`years on the job (and possibly also in conjunction with attaining a master`s degree?) didn't their salaries top out at something like $87-8-9K?

[Robb]

It's public info: 2006 Collective agreement salary grid for SD63

I think...
4 Teaching Certificate
4+ working towards Bachelor's
5 Bachelor's
5+ working towards Master's
6 Master's or Doctorate

...and then steps are years seniority.

So the overall range is $38.5K to $70.3K for Saanich, other districts seem comparable. Even if they got the 15% raise they're asking for, I don't think any teacher in BC would be making $87K or more.

2006 Collective agreement Salary Grids

[Robb]

Originally Posted by Holden West

I know a newly-minted teacher who's pretty much given up hope of finding full-time work in Victoria in the foreseeable future and is working in the retail trade.

It's been that way for years. She either needs to spend years as a teacher-on-call, or move to a district where they're hiring.

There are plenty of fields where you can't find work in the same city where you went to University. It doesn't mean there is an over-supply of workers in general (although there may be, I don't know).

[sebberry]

Originally Posted by Robb

So the overall range is $38.5K to $70.3K for Saanich, other districts seem comparable.

Remember for teachers, "per year" is really more like "per 8 months".

I may be wrong, but aren't teachers also eligible for EI during the summer?

[Candarius]

Originally Posted by sebberry

Remember for teachers, "per year" is really more like "per 8 months".

I may be wrong, but aren't teachers also eligible for EI during the summer?

Quite a few teachers elect to get paid across the 12 months of the year rather than just the months when school is in session.

I do not think the teachers with full time positions are eligible for EI. No idea for the on call teachers.

[sebberry]

Originally Posted by Candarius

I do not think the teachers with full time positions are eligible for EI. No idea for the on call teachers.

It would be interesting to find out. I know someone who works at a private school (dorm supervisor) who gets EI for the summer.

I suppose if teachers have the option to spread their wages out over the summer then they'd probably not collect EI.

[Robb]

Originally Posted by sebberry

Remember for teachers, "per year" is really more like "per 8 months".

Well, I'm expected to be at work for 8hrs, 228 days a year.

Teachers work 194 days per year... so they'd have to average 9.4hrs a day to equal my "work". Doesn't seem that far fetched that with marking, lesson plans, extra-curricular activities, etc. that they would do so.

Plus... I can take my vacation when I want.


Employment Insurance and Teachers Regular Teachers on continuing contract, no. Teachers on call, maybe.

[Bingo]

So how does seniority work for teachers, can you stay at your job long after the best before date?

[Mike K.]

As far as I understand, teachers can retire early but they must retire by a certain age.

Has everyone heard that the Liberals are proposing paying teachers higher wages if they agree to take on more than 30 kids in their classroom?

[LJ]

^I proposed that a long time ago. Pay them on a per-pupil ratio.

We would quickly see how dedicated they are to the needs of the students through smaller class sizes.

They probably wouldn't vote for it though, even they can figure out that all their buddies are going to have 40 kids in the class and now we need almost 30% fewer teachers.

[Bob Fugger]

Originally Posted by sebberry

It would be interesting to find out. I know someone who works at a private school (dorm supervisor) who gets EI for the summer.

I suppose if teachers have the option to spread their wages out over the summer then they'd probably not collect EI.

That may be the case, but likely they make enough money the rest of the year that every dollar of EI would be clawed back once tax returns are filed. For those people who make a high enough wage and then make the mistake of finding a job the same year, their EI is clawed back. Sort a thanks very much for weening yourself of the public teet - oh, now give us back our milk.

[martini]

Originally Posted by LJ

^I proposed that a long time ago. Pay them on a per-pupil ratio.

We would quickly see how dedicated they are to the needs of the students through smaller class sizes.

They probably wouldn't vote for it though, even they can figure out that all their buddies are going to have 40 kids in the class and now we need almost 30% fewer teachers.

Really?!
Do you have kids in the system?

[LJ]

Originally Posted by martini

Really?!
Do you have kids in the system?

Good God no. We hauled them out after three years of that dreadful experience.

[LJ]

Originally Posted by Bob Fugger

That may be the case, but likely they make enough money the rest of the year that every dollar of EI would be clawed back once tax returns are filed. For those people who make a high enough wage and then make the mistake of finding a job the same year, their EI is clawed back. Sort a thanks very much for weening yourself of the public teet - oh, now give us back our milk.

Is it? Is that just in BC or all across the country?

I know people working in the oil fields who make huge money then get laid off for a couple of months and collect EI, and they never mentioned having to repay.