Panhandlers, tacky shops cost Empress a conference

[Galvanized]

Panhandlers, tacky shops cost Empress a conference


Kim Westad, Times Colonist
Published: Friday, August 18, 2006

The Empress hotel lost a $200,000 conference in July because the U.S. delegates thought Victoria had too many panhandlers and "cheap souvenir shops."

And local tourism expert Frank Bourree is glad someone has called Victoria on an issue he said is bad for tourism and getting worse.

"Panhandling is an issue for tourists, it's an issue for locals, and it's an issue for social service agencies and the city. The reality is they are there, and it does have an impact," Bourree said Thursday after hearing of the cancellation.

A Washington, D.C.-based company booked a four-day conference last summer for this July. But a company conference organizer returned to Victoria in February and didn't like what he found. In a letter to The Empress, he wrote that the hotel facilities were fine, but he was disappointed in the city.

"It was full of cheap souvenir shops and countless homeless people hounding us for money. It was not relaxing and enjoyable but rather quite uncomfortable. It reminded me of the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver rather than a world-class city," the organizer wrote to Empress general manager Roger Soane.

The exchange rate had also changed dramatically from the booking date in the summer of 2005, when the U.S. dollar was worth $1.17, to February, when it dropped to $1.07.

Soane didn't have permission to release the company's name Thursday, but said it was a national association based in Washington, D.C. It's not the kind of publicity Victoria needs in a tourism climate already marred by declining U.S. visitors, he said.

"As much as I believe everyone has a right to be in this world, the people who are working hard and paying taxes also have rights," Soane said.

The Empress pays $8,000 a day in property taxes, said Soane. He said street people who need housing, mental health and addiction help should get those services, but suggests tougher city bylaws to move along those who are choosing panhandling as a job.

In Vancouver, the Hotel Vancouver has hired extra security to try to deter panhandlers because it says it has lost business due to their aggressive behaviour. The Empress hasn't done that, but rather uses "gentle persuasion" to move panhandlers along, Soane said.

The news of the lost conference comes during the Empress's worst July in the last decade. The landmark Inner Harbour hotel only had a 66-per-cent occupancy rate at a time when it expects 90 per cent. Soane said many factors led to the poor results, including fewer U.S. travellers, difficulties for people crossing the border and high gas costs. But a perceived increase in panhandling and the proliferation of tourist shops on lower Government Street near the hotel play a role, he said.

"The deterioration of Government Street is just appalling. It's become T-shirt alley," Soane said.

Bourree, too, thinks there a few too many "ticky-tacky stores" along lower Government, but said there are also some good unique local stores as well.

But such tourist shops are a part of travelling life, he said, noting that even the Champs Elysees in Paris is lined with souvenir shops.

And, as Royal Victoria Gifts manager Carolyn Stessens pointed out, the grouping of souvenir shops is positive for travellers who "don't have to walk all over town to find what they want."
© Times Colonist (Victoria) 2006

[G-Man]

Finally perhaps someone will do something about those god awful stores :-D I have hated those stores since childhood. They do nothing for our economy but does lots for the Chinese. Perhaps the city could craft a bylaw that could restrict any new tacky tourist stores. Not sure how you could do that but perhaps like buskers the city hall must approve stores within a set area of downtown. The current stores could be grandfathered in but since most of them are going out of business we won't have to wait long for them to be gone.

[DelsterX]

Yes I have nver seen the panhandling and loitering so bad in all my years of living here. I pass 5 want ad posters and then I see people asking for change. What is wrong with this friggen picture? I feel like saying wtf? We have the lowest unemployemnt ever and yet we have the streets filled with street zombies!! :smt021

[G-Man]

I swear have that even MORE annoying than the panhandlers are the freakin jerks working for all those non-profits all the freakin city. On my way home yesterday one of them tried to stop me, " Do you have a minute for UNICEF?" " Sure I am walking home after working for eight hours there is nothing I would rather do than talk about starving children that if I could just give you five dollars would somehow go away." Or that is what I was thinking what I actually said was "NO!" and kept walking. Where did all these people come from but I would rather be followed by a wino for three blocks while he yells at me then to be stopped every three blocks downtown by Amnesty Internatial, SPCA, UNICEF or whatever...

[VicHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by DelsterX

Yes I have nver seen the panhandling and loitering so bad in all my years of living here. I pass 5 want ad posters and then I see people asking for change. What is wrong with this friggen picture? I feel like saying wtf? We have the lowest unemployemnt ever and yet we have the streets filled with street zombies!! :smt021

I agree.

[VicHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by G-Man

Finally perhaps someone will do something about those god awful stores :-D I have hated those stores since childhood. They do nothing for our economy but does lots for the Chinese. Perhaps the city could craft a bylaw that could restrict any new tacky tourist stores. Not sure how you could do that but perhaps like buskers the city hall must approve stores within a set area of downtown. The current stores could be grandfathered in but since most of them are going out of business we won't have to wait long for them to be gone.

Let's not meddle in a free market.

[Holden West]

I have to agree with the fanatical right wingers here.

I have a problem telling a store owner what he can and can't sell. Especially when it comes down to having banning the t-shirts with dumb fishing jokes on them but the hipster t-shirts at Smoking Lily are fine. Even if you could pass a bylaw I don't know how you could enforce it. Bad Taste Police?

I suppose I'd rather live with the tacky shops (which are better than they used to be) than some disney-fied strip selling only government-approved merchanidise.

It's too bad the rents are so high only high-volume retailers can survive. A slightly more "urban" type store like a quirky record shop, used bookstore, or an "alternative" clothing store (like Smoking Lily) would break up the tedium and really add more authentic downtown vibrancy. It would also help integrate the locals and tourists more.

[Mike K.]

^very true.

The high rents mandate that these business have to pull all the strings throughout the summer as they're still paying through their noses during off-season periods. The off-season is the demise of many a business in this city.

[Holden West]

The double edged sword of owning a business that only appeals to the cruise ship crowd. Reap riches in summer--die in winter. So upgrade your store with stuff locals find useful and interesting and maybe you'll do better year round.

All it takes is less than half-a-dozen hardcore panhandlers to make a visible impact on the downtown core. We've all seen them every time we come downtown. Some of them are not socialized and wouldn't be able to make it in a home setting if it were offered them on a silver platter. For some, tragically, the street is their home and they'd probably refuse the chance for "resettlement". What I'm saying is, you could have the world's greatest and most successful social program for curing homelessness and there would still be those who would opt out or couldn't cope. And tourists fooled into thinking Victoria was free of people with social issues would be offended when they see them.

[VicHockeyFan]

I wonder how Birks does. They appeal to both the local market and tourists.

[Galvanized]

I wonder if some of these t-shirt shops have the actual licenses to print some of thier merchandise. I've seen some pretty blatant rip offs for sale along there. As long as people keep buying this crap they won't be going anywhere soon.

[Mike K.]

Originally Posted by Holden West

The double edged sword of owning a business that only appeals to the cruise ship crowd. Reap riches in summer--die in winter. So upgrade your store with stuff locals find useful and interesting and maybe you'll do better year round.

By the time the summer ends there is no business because there are no people. Only in the last couple of years have people started shopping in the downtown in numbers that are allowing businesses to keep their heads above water during the off season.

[Holden West]

Is it a business or a black eye?
Downtown's Great Panhandling Debate

Kim Westad
Times Colonist

Saturday, August 19, 2006

John Leo has lived on the streets since he was 12 and considers himself a businessman of sorts.

Leo, whose street nickname is "Beast" is a panhandler, and like many business people he goes where the customers are. So lower Government Street, teeming with tourists most summer days, is a natural just as it is for the owners of the souvenir shops that line the blocks near the Inner Harbour.

It's that confluence -- panhandlers and "cheap souvenir shops" -- that drove a planned $200,000 medical conference from Washington, D.C. out of The Empress hotel, the landmark hotel's manager said. Roger Soane also said if the city doesn't do more to deal with panhandlers and "T-shirt alley" on lower Government Street, the tourist business the city has come to take for granted will easily go elsewhere.

"We are a fantastic destination, but there are a lot of other fantastic destinations out there who are trying a lot harder to please the tourism business," Soane said Friday. "We've taken the tourism business for granted for too long."

But on a sunny Friday lunch hour, panhandlers were hard to find. They were vastly outnumbered by the proliferation of "Final Sale" and "Liquidation" sale signs in almost every souvenir shop window, often there for months. Leo said lower Government Street can be good business for panhandling, which is legal.

"But the aggressive panhandlers ruin it for everyone," said the 31-year-old man who has asking for money down to a fine art. "You have to be polite, make eye contact, ask how their day is going, make them feel like human beings."

"And give good directions -- people like that," added William Hay, as he and Leo retrieved plastic water bottles from the trash can to return for change before moving on to panhandling in the afternoon. Kostas Sarabalos sat in the sun with a coffee, enjoying the Government Street bustle. The 19-year-old is visiting for two weeks from Alberta and wasn't concerned with the panhandlers.

"You get them everywhere. It's no different here."

Gail MacGee, visiting from Dallas, Texas, handed over her Canadian change to Willy, a 55-year-old panhandler. MacGee isn't bothered by panhandling, particularly the low-key style here compared to that in Mexico City, where, she said, poor children looked into restaurant windows while she was eating.

The Washington, D.C. meeting planner cancelled the conference, intended for the summer of 2008, after visiting Victoria in February, Soane said. The planner complained of too many "cheap souvenir" stores and being "hounded" by panhandlers whom he referred to as children. Soane wouldn't identify the national organization that cancelled.

Jordan Cooper, assistant director at the Open Door, found it somewhat ironic that the comments came from people from Washington, D.C. The city was once dubbed the murder capital of the U.S. with a killing almost daily, as well as having one of the highest homeless rates in the U.S.

"Homelessness isn't restricted just to Victoria and I don't think panhandling would have enough impact to cancel a conference," Cooper said.

He suggested the buoyant Canadian dollar, high gas prices and difficulties with passports may have played as much of a role. As for too many souvenir shops, some say the complaint is more likely about the many "liquidation" and "last chance" signs that makes it look stores are in imminent danger of going out of business.

Dean Jackson, who runs eight stores in three blocks of lower Government Street, said he'd welcome more diversity in the high-rent area. Government Street has rents from $60 to $90 dollars a squate foot, because the tourists are there, he said.

"It's location, location, location," said Jackson, who keeps his signs to a minimum. "I'm not selling fleece jackets and T-shirts and mugs because I love them. We're selling them because people want these items." And if more locals shopped in the area, there would likely be more diversity, Jackson said.
© Times Colonist (Victoria) 2006
=============

Hmm...He won't sell things locals like because they don't go into his shops. Locals don't go into his shops because they don't sell things they like.

Stalemate.

[Dylan Leblanc]

Panhandles ought to be rounded up and shipped off to a work farm. Teach em how the capitalist system works. There always seems to be farms which can't get enough cheap labor. Put em to work!

[Holden West]

Er, that would be impractical, ineffective, unethical and illegal.

But thanks for contributing! Your C-FAX Citation Rose is on the way, courtesy of Brown's The Florist!

[VicHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by Holden West

Er, that would be impractical, ineffective, unethical and illegal.

But thanks for contributing! Your C-FAX Citation Rose is on the way, courtesy of Brown's The Florist!

:wink:

Maybe we can relese some snakes downtown that only bite the homeless.

[Holden West]

^Finally, a reasonable solution. Or maybe they could be snakes that gently squeeze them until they say, "Alright, alright, I'm going!"

A one size fits all "solution" to the homeless issue is unlikely as there are many reasons for people being on the street. Some are young people from back east hanging out between stints doing farm labour in the interior. Some are there only temporarily between welfare and their next job. Some are hardcore people with issues that make it near impossible for them to stay in any type of housing. Women exiting abusive relationships. Kids running away from home. Junkies. Alcoholics. Mentally disabled or otherwise unemployable.

And not all panhandlers are homeless and not all homeless are panhandlers.

[Holden West]

Shall we make this thread the generic tourist complaint thread?

=============

Graffiti and sewage dim Victoria's appeal

Times Colonist
Published: Monday, August 21, 2006

An old friend from Chicago recently visited me in Vancouver. She wanted to see Victoria, so we hopped on the bus and headed over for a day. Her views were generally positive -- the tour of the Legislative Buildings was especially wonderful -- but through her eyes I also saw several things in Victoria that I had not given much credence to before. Mr. Floatie and his brethren coating the ocean off of Dallas Road was not an especially pleasant thought. But even worse was the rampant graffiti that now seems to be rivalling what's going on here in Vancouver. The worst was the spray painting of the gates of Government House, the lieutenant-governor's residence. Absolutely disgusting.

I lived in Victoria between 1997 and 2001. The changes since are not something that anyone in your city government should be proud of.

Robert Werner,

Vancouver.

============

Again, it's the perception of sewage, not the actual problem that's so worrisome to some.

Graffiti? Victoria is one of the world leaders in graffiti eradication. Don't believe me? Go to other cities and see. Most cities have massive graffiti problems, even cities you wouldn't associate with graf, like Venice.

It amazes me when I see blank untagged walls in Victoria. I think to myself, if this were Paris or Berlin or pretty much any large or small town in the developed world that wall would be tagged in minutes.

[G-Man]

^ I agree but that writer hints in her letter at her perspective,

graffiti that now seems to be rivalling what's going on here in Vancouver

This of course cannot happen because Victoria is a little village by the sea and how could it have real city problems. This is the same problem with panhandling. If you spread a myth that Victoria is a sleepy little seaside village, than you see people asking for money on the street you are shocked because you wouldn't expect to see this in a similar town like Cape Cod or Carmel.

Of course that does not mean I like taggers which I differentiate from other graffiti artists. I have to say if some one is williing to put an hour of effort into defacing property that is somehow more rrespectful than someone with a jiffy marker.

[Mike K.]

Coincidentally most of my friends from high school are now "graffers." They're not taggers, but "graffers" who run with crews full of some of the most talented artists I've ever met.

If you study graffiti created by real graffiti artists, it oftentimes has a message that is not obvious to passersbys. And quite frankly neither is the message aimed at average joes, either. To understand graf you have to take the time to acknowledge its presence and let the illegality of the art form slide. Getting upset because a piece has gone up won't allow you to appreciate what someone has created hence the huge opposition by some individuals.

Btw, it can take days to create one peace of graffiti. It's a very laborious process even with three or four guys working on one piece.

One of Victoria's most talented artists, who went by the name of "Ghost," passed away several years ago but his talents were at-par with some of the worlds best. He was very troubled by the events that had taken place in his life and through his art he expressed himself -- a perfect example of what graffiti has the potential to be. It's too bad most saw him as a criminal rather than an artist with an unbelievable gift.

[VicHockeyFan]

Originally Posted by Derf

Coincidentally most of my friends from high school are now "graffers." They're not taggers, but "graffers" who run with crews full of some of the most talented artists I've ever met.

If you study graffiti created by real graffiti artists, it oftentimes has a message that is not obvious to passersbys. And quite frankly neither is the message aimed at average joes, either. To understand graf you have to take the time to acknowledge its presence and let the illegality of the art form slide. Getting upset because a piece has gone up won't allow you to appreciate what someone has created hence the huge opposition by some individuals.

Btw, it can take days to create one peace of graffiti. It's a very laborious process even with three or four guys working on one piece.

One of Victoria's most talented artists, who went by the name of "Ghost," passed away several years ago but his talents were at-par with some of the worlds best. He was very troubled by the events that had taken place in his life and through his art he expressed himself -- a perfect example of what graffiti has the potential to be. It's too bad most saw him as a criminal rather than an artist with an unbelievable gift.

...what a bunch of drivel.

[Mike K.]

:smt012

I'm not talking about kids painting their "tags" in bubble letters -- I'm talking about drawings with spray cans. It's an urban form of expression that I'm assuming you don't care for. Believe me, it's a much more pleasant urban phenomenon then what local clubs and pubs scatter into the streets at 2AM every morning.

One thing I personally disagree with is defacing prominent sections of property. Back alleys and rear courtyards used for loading docks are perfectly suited for graffiti as it doesn't bother individuals. Graffiti on storefronts or highly visible walls can be a visual eyesore but the latter isn't a big problem in Victoria (albeit some think it is).


[img]http://www.graffiti.org/victoria/vic_ghost_12.jpg[/img]


[img]http://www.graffiti.org/victoria/vic_leonard_peltier_by_aley.jpg[/img]

[Holden West]

For every decent graf on an unsightly wall there's a hundred fugly tags on nice facades. Ah, well--everyone's a critic.

Breaking news straight from the horses mouth! Roger Soane and others sound off on panhandlers on CBC radio.

Latest Interviews

August 21
A lead hotelier in Victoria claims he lost a major U.S. conference because of aggressive pandhandlers in downtown Victoria. He says for the problem to improve, there needs to be political will. We put that challenge to two politicians: a city MLA and a member of city council.
Listen to the interview (runs 7:15)

We hear the panhandlers side in the controversy over panhandling in Victoria.
Listen to the interview (runs 4:35)

August 18
We hear from Roger Soane, the General Manager of the Fairmont Empress who says he's lost a major conference because of the pandhandlers in downtown Victoria.
Listen to the interview

http://www.cbc.ca/ontheisland/interviews.html

(RealAudio)

[aastra]

If you come to Victoria expecting a fairyland getaway, you will definitely be disappointed and even shocked by the reality of the place. Constant sirens, panhandlers, street people, graffiti, drugs, brutal crime (that fatal stabbing at Central High and that Cook Street rapist come to mind)....

It's a real city. It's also an equal opportunity city, re: mayhem. You can vandalize any property anywhere, in just about any part of town. You can loiter anywhere, even on neighbourhood streets. Most cities have riff-raff free zones, Victoria doesn't.

In many other cities, the guys doing the spraypainting near Government House would have had the cops on them just because they dared to go for a walk in that neighbourhood.

[aastra]

I lived in Victoria between 1997 and 2001. The changes since are not something that anyone in your city government should be proud of.

Fact is, Victoria hasn't changed at all in that time. If he wasn't aware of the city's uglier sides, he simply wasn't paying attention.