Wow, is it just me or is downtown looking dumpy..

[cakeman]

So through almost the entire 90's I worked downtown in the 600 block of Yates. Yeah, Scotts diner was a little questionable, but generally I remember a fairly busy downtown, with little to no ground floor vacancies (except the corner at Yates/Broad, until the glass blowing place moved in). I remember it being relatively clean, comfortable to be in.

This afternoon I fell prey to some false advertising and popped downtown to check out 'lots of old school camera lenses' at the junk shop in the 700 block of Johnson (they had none).

As I went through 700 Yates, I was surprised by what appeared to be a fair number of empty, very dirty storefronts.. Yates onto Douglas, then up Johnson, and onto Blanshard before I found some parking..

Heading down 700 Johnson I was again struck by how trashy it all looked.. again, a few large empty, dirty vacancies. The junk shop certainly didnt help things with big bars across the entrance and either a couple sex dolls or mannequins stuck to their facade..

Full disclosure, I dont go down there as it has very little to interest me.. but man, do I ever feel disinclined to head down again.. The addition of the 7-11s on Govt and on Douglas/Johnson really dont help either.

Im a big guy, so wouldnt feel nervous walking past homeless or dealers or whatever.. but I cant imagine being a tourist and stumbling into this.. eew.

cakes..

[zinkerled]

Having to drive all the way around a block to find a parking space must have taken quite a toll on you. To use two small, slightly seedy blocks (the only ones I can even think of) to paint the whole downtown as 'dumpy' is ridiculous. I don't know how many other downtowns you've seen but ours is one of the nicest and safest around.

[Bob Fugger]

Originally Posted by zinkerled

Having to drive all the way around a block to find a parking space must have taken quite a toll on you. To use two small, slightly seedy blocks (the only ones I can even think of) to paint the whole downtown as 'dumpy' is ridiculous. I don't know how many other downtowns you've seen but ours is one of the nicest and safest around.

I disagree. Downtown is pretty cracky, imho. The quadrant of Fort to Belleville and Cook to the Inner Harbour are OK. View Street and northwards, I wouldn't go after dark - and I too am a burly dude with whom most folk don't mess. Whether it is actually safe or not doesn't really matter - it feels unsafe, which is enough to kill a downtown. Here's an example the kind of bull$hit you deal with downtown - and we all know - everyone of us on here - that this is not a one-off: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151915810230599

Does this seem like the "nicest and safest [downtown] around?" Nope. I'll stick to my urban villages, thank you very much.

[Baro]

Burger kings fights are the height of class.

[G-Man]

Please people. Wont go north of View Street? Wow all of you need to get out more. I mean is this just some sort of joke or are you guys some sorts of internet dwellers that don't go outside?

[zinkerled]

Originally Posted by Bob Fugger

Here's an example the kind of bull$hit you deal with downtown - and we all know - everyone of us on here - that this is not a one-off: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151915810230599

Thanks Bob, I stand corrected, that video will give me nightmares tonight. I'm glad you made it out of there in one piece. And yes, everything north of View feels extremely dangerous at night. I wouldn't set foot in old town past 11pm without at least two male friends. Centennial Square is completely infested with wild-eyed sex couples and china town is a hovel of pimps and asian street gangs.

[Bob Fugger]

Originally Posted by G-Man

Please people. Wont go north of View Street? Wow all of you need to get out more. I mean is this just some sort of joke or are you guys some sorts of internet dwellers that don't go outside?

Perhaps "won't go after dark" does sound a bit xenophobic and paranoid. Let me recharacterize what I mean: of all the choices that I have for where I can spend my free time, that particular area if downtown is not high on my list. It has little to offer. And it's cracky.

And maybe that's what it boils down to - economics. Downtown has to compete for my free time with other activities and areas. With a finite amount of free time, there are what I perceive to be other higher value choices. I'm sure if I want some heroin and/or a cheap handjob, that part of town would be top of the list.

[Bob Fugger]

Originally Posted by zinkerled

Thanks Bob, I stand corrected, that video will give me nightmares tonight. I'm glad you made it out of there in one piece. And yes, everything north of View feels extremely dangerous at night. I wouldn't set foot in old town past 11pm without at least two male friends. Centennial Square is completely infested with wild-eyed sex couples and china town is a hovel of pimps and asian street gangs.

You should bring the straw man you just created out of my argument. He'll protect you.

[pherthyl]

Originally Posted by Bob Fugger

Here's an example the kind of bull$hit you deal with downtown - and we all know - everyone of us on here - that this is not a one-off: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151915810230599

Does this seem like the "nicest and safest [downtown] around?" Nope. I'll stick to my urban villages, thank you very much.

I don't think "cracky" means what you think it means...

It's certainly not two teenagers arguing in a fast food joint. Which I'm sure never happens in your urban village. Teenagers probably don't exist there.

[zinkerled]

Originally Posted by Bob Fugger

Whether it is actually safe or not doesn't really matter - it feels unsafe, which is enough to kill a downtown.

I think what kills a downtown is people scaring others away by making them think it's a frightening place after sundown. If you don't like the vibrancy and excitement of a downtown then yes, stick to Fairfield Plaza, but don't hurt downtown businesses by telling people in feels cracky and dangerous. It's not true at all.

[Bob Fugger]

Originally Posted by pherthyl

I don't think "cracky" means what you think it means...

It's certainly not two teenagers arguing in a fast food joint. Which I'm sure never happens in your urban village. Teenagers probably don't exist there.

No, I'm pretty sure I know what it means, do you?

As for the rest of your comment, is everyone tonight incapable making a proper argument? I'm getting nothing but straw tonight.

[Bob Fugger]

Originally Posted by zinkerled

I think what kills a downtown is people scaring others away by making them think it's a frightening place after sundown. If you don't like the vibrancy and excitement of a downtown then yes, stick to Fairfield Plaza, but don't hurt downtown businesses by telling people in feels cracky and dangerous. It's not true at all.

If people draw that conclusion from my opinion, so be it. I've not made anyone do or think anything. As for downtown feeling cracky and dangerous, what's untrue about that? I go to that part of town and those are the feelings it evokes. Are you suggesting that that is not my opinion?

As for characterizing that area as vibrant and exciting, whatever floats your boat. I don't find getting constantly accosted for spare change and cigarettes and getting spit on and cursed at by strung out junkies particularly vibrant or exciting, myself.

[zinkerled]

Originally Posted by Bob Fugger

As for characterizing that area as vibrant and exciting, whatever floats your boat. I don't find getting constantly accosted for spare change and cigarettes and getting spit on and cursed at by strung out junkies particularly vibrant or exciting, myself.

What I'm suggesting is that you don't know what you're talking about, not that you aren't entitled to your opinion. Perhaps you haven't been in the area since the homeless shelters moved out over a year ago. I didn't think it was particularly bad before, but now I hardly ever see people strung out on drugs or selling drugs or acting aggressive or any of that type of behavior. Maybe you have too many old memories of walking past Street Link and 700 Johnson (Our Place I believe it was) still in your head? They aren't there any more.

[Bob Fugger]

Originally Posted by zinkerled

What I'm suggesting is that you don't know what you're talking about, not that you aren't entitled to your opinion. Perhaps you haven't been in the area since the homeless shelters moved out over a year ago. I didn't think it was particularly bad before, but now I hardly ever see people stung out on drugs or selling drugs or acting aggressive or any of that type of behavior. Maybe you have too many old memories of walking past Street Link and 700 Johnson (Our Place I believe it was) still in your head? They aren't there any more.

Supposing I accept what you say at face value. Relative to most CRD denizens, do you think that my perception of downtown is in the minority or the majority view? Because it is perception that counts in this case.

[zinkerled]

Originally Posted by Bob Fugger

Supposing I accept what you say at face value. Relative to most CRD denizens, do you think that my perception of downtown is in the minority or the majority view? Because it is perception that counts in this case.

Everything north of VIEW ST? Definitely the minority view. I do suspect however that the majority shares your perception of what used to be the problem areas, not realizing there's been a lot of recent improvement. Nobody offers to sell drugs on Yates St anymore for instance. I remember two or three years ago you couldn't walk east to the movie theaters without being offered all the major street drugs. Not any more. And with the shelters gone (not to get into the politics of that) I hardly ever see people visibly high on drugs anymore, and I live and work in the area. I also never see anyone getting assaulted, the only fights are between drunk guys getting out the bar at 2 am.

[zinkerled]

Sorry, East to the movie theatres, not North.

[zinkerled]

I think a big change has been the recent shift from hard street drugs to prescription drugs, shifting a lot of drug related problems out of downtown.

[G-Man]

I agree you do not see near as much open drug peddling as you used to. I have not been asked to buy drugs in years. It used to be that you couldn't walk three blocks downtown without someone whispering a bizarre name for a drug to you.

[gumgum]

I am actually astonished how much things have improved downtown.

[Bob Fugger]

Originally Posted by gumgum

I am actually astonished how much things have improved downtown.

Well, don't get me wrong, I'd be happy if my perception is a misperception. But that's kinda the problem: we remember how bad it was. Certainly, Fernwood suffered the same problem - arguably, the gentrification was punctuated and Fernwood "arrived" with the culmination of that recent NY Times article.

Perhaps the City should use some of its considerable communications budget to begin an awareness campaign. Something along the lines of, "Downtown Victoria: not as $hitty as you think it is" or "Downtown Victoria: now with 50% less panhandling."

[gumgum]

Well 10 years ago I mustn't have thought it was too bad either seeing as I chose to move here. But things have improved and are bound to get much better. The more influx of residents d/t is a huge key to improvements and that's definately the trend.
Humbolt valley, the Falls, the Sovereign, all the Lefevre projects, 834, Union, Northern Junk, Janion, and more have all presented themselves pretty recently.
This shows that (a) people appreciate downtown enough that they want to
live there and (b) this densification is bound to improve things even more.

I think that since there is a demand for residents d/t shows that things are definately on the upswing.

There's a certain 'tiredness' to every downtown. Ottawa, Toronto, montreal, Vancouver etc all could be percieved as having an element of dumpiness. But mostly I think
it's just well used.

I feel much more safe d/t than I ever have.

[Mike K.]

Originally Posted by gumgum

I am actually astonished how much things have improved downtown.

Me too.

The downtown Victoria of the 1990's where I spent the majority of my days as a little single-digit youngin all the way up through my late teens is a far, far cry from the downtown of today.

The downtown area has vastly improved over the last 20 years. For those who rarely come downtown obviously it's a grittier and more urban experience than anywhere else in the region, but that's what downtowns are, they are urban experiences in and of themselves.

Certainly, Fernwood suffered the same problem - arguably, the gentrification was punctuated and Fernwood "arrived" with the culmination of that recent NY Times article.

Some 50 years ago James Bay was so dangerous that cabbies refused to drive there. It was the apartment building (lower class housing) dumping ground, home to Victoria's shipyards, home to petty street gangs and a gritty urban/industrial area that would put the downtown Victoria of today to shame.

[PulpVictor]

I've lived in NYC, LA, Chicago, and other large cities around the world. Maybe I'm just old, but there is absolutely nothing downtown that interests me. I used to pick my daughter up at The Bay Centre, and that cured me of any (small) desire I had of shopping, driving, walking, or being downtown.

[sdwright.vic]

I have got to say this is all a matter of perception, and perception is based in what one has been exposed to. Having lived in Vancouver, Seattle, San Francisco, and NYC I got to say EVERY city has it little corner of dumpiness and danger. But for these larger cities its much easier to place those off your personal grid.

Victoria being such a small downtown, their is little chance of you placing this areas off you grid, as any direction you go; north, south, east, or west- you have to go through one of these "areas" to get into or out of downtown. But this the be as contender as one of the most unsafe and dangerous downtown's is a bit of a reach around.

Now having said that, I was in the Bay Centre yesterday, and its vacancy rate certainly is on the upswing.

[aastra]

Victoria being such a small downtown, their is little chance of you placing this areas off you grid, as any direction you go; north, south, east, or west- you have to go through one of these "areas"

I'm not sure I agree with this notion. In the north/south direction you can access downtown Victoria along several routes, and you can also drive straight through downtown Victoria on your way to somewhere else. Victoria's downtown is not isolated from the rest of the city. It's not even clear where downtown Victoria begins and ends.

But from the south and north you can access downtown Vancouver along only a few routes. Enter along Burrard and downtown Vancouver will seem spiffy and wonderful because the Burrard route is lined by new condo buildings and office towers and Burrard ends abruptly at a gleaming new condo-fied waterfront. Take Granville and you'll get a very similar impression. Granville's former seediness is pretty much gone now. Lots of gleaming new retail spaces. Come in on the Cambie Street Bridge and all you'll see are new condo buildings (head further west through downtown and you'll see the comfortable west end neighbourhood, which ends abruptly at Stanley Park). Come in along the Lion's Gate Bridge and Georgia street will seem pristine and condo-fied and wonderful much like Burrard. It's only when you enter downtown Vancouver from the east that you still see any seediness (there are several streets running in and out along the eastern edge, as coincidence would have it).

Which leads me to ask, isn't that homogeneous, gentrified "downtown Vancouver" atmosphere exactly what Victorians have been resisting for the past few decades? Isn't that precisely why there was such an uproar about cleaning up the Y-lot and building the Falls and the Juliet (not to mention cleaning up/repurposing the Hudson)? Isn't that precisely why there's a mini-uproar about the Northern Junk project? Because Victorians, in their zeal to have a downtown that includes and represents all socio-economic levels equally, ended up developing a distaste for including/representing the upper middle class at all? Isn't that why the city hasn't taken any positive action to drive densification downtown? Because gleaming new residential projects encourage more gleaming new residents projects, which would ultimately squeeze the lower end out of downtown?

Isn't that a piece of what Gene Miller was talking about in the June issue of Focus?

While it’s good that the mayor, several months ago, intervened literally at the last moment to reduce the severity of the City’s bonus density policy (in which the City keeps urban densities artificially low to force developers to “buy” from the City the additional density they need to create viable projects), his actions simply softened Victoria’s development policy disincentives. The City has to stop thinking that a move from -5 to -3 is palliation worth cheering, and must figure out what a set of +5 policies would look like. I don’t know how to say this more simply: Victoria needs 10,000-20,000 new people living and working in and near Downtown.

I agree that there are a lot of vacancies. Although there are a lot of vacancies in Vancouver, too. But it seems to be worse in Victoria (probably because of the huge amount of new commercial space that's being built at Uptown, Hillside, and in other areas of Victoria).